Chavez

[Zach]

Every time he puts Venezuela in the news it gets better and better. Now he's ripping down freedom of speech, because it's the opposition?

I bet Castro calls him "Mini Me".

Butters... surely your people don't actually like this guy? He's turning your country into a dictatorship one step at a time. Be careful you don't end up like China with regulated Internet, next...

[Jale]

Do you think the news say the truth about Venezuela? It's not a matter of freedom of speech, it's a matter of media democracy.

Here's the truth. Radio Caracas Television (RCTV) was under the channel 2 and the government is the owner of that spectrum. If we roll back in 2002 where there was a huge fuck-up (Coup d' etat), RCTV had a huge participation moving the masses to the Miraflores Palace (where Chávez is) along with other media, being Venevisión, Televen and Globovisión the main ones. They're known here as "The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse".

With the failure of 2002's coup, they did it again in 2003 convoking a national halt, messing with the oil and leading us to a very deep poverty. Believe me, I lived that. It was a pain in the ass to get gas to cook and oil for our cars, Thanks to the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" (RCTV, VV, GB and TV).

But why RCTV and not the others? Because that channel has violated most of the "Radio and TV Responsability Law", which includes lying and manipulating the truth. VV (Venevisión) also participated in the coup, but they stopped manipulating the truth since 2005.

That manipulation lead people to their death (see coup of 2002). There were snipers on the buildings!

A recent case, it happened yesterday. The people who were protesting were acting very agressive towards the police by hitting them with rocks and bottles. The media said it was in the inverse way: The police was hitting the people who were protesting "pacifically". That is manipulation.

Besides, do you know what RCTV was showing? Little girls dancing Reggaeton? And almost naked? (mini skirt, etc). Dude, that was almost pedophila! Exposing a little girl's body on TV and she wasn't even 8 years old!

Freedom of speech? No, dude. That was Libertinism of Speech and we had enough of trash like RCTV. And guess what? RCTV is coming back in June 1st, but through cable. Was that a closure? A hit to "freedom of speech"?

The owner of RCTV DIDN'T say RCTV is coming back through cable to keep the streets "on fire" and letting you think in Venezuela there's a dictatorship.

My friends, the media is lying. The ones who are protesting against the "closure" of RCTV are just crybabies, making this damn thing even bigger and bigger; an international scandal. They're just making a drama for the world to see...

And to finish... just let them cry. They'll eventually forget this. The media has been showing only the negative shit about Chávez and Venezuela for like... 8 years! CNN and FOX News are helping with the manipulation. We're used to it.

And to answer your last question, yes, we like him. While those pussies were crying, we were celebrating!

[Zach]

While it's not right for the media to manipulate the truth and things of that nature, I still look at the bigger picture of everything he's done and shake my head. It seems like he's doing his fair share of manipulating the media as well. And what the heck is "media democracy"? That sounds like some cheap term to be honest. It's funny how everyone in the media that supports him and provides hardly any negative coverage receive lot's more funding and support as well. I'll give you that RCTV has done a lot of questionable things though. But who remains to actually criticize him? I find it hard to believe -everyones- loves him.

As for the TV station supporting the coupe, I heard they ran cartoons all day after the fact.. And how exactly did they "lead people to their deaths?" If they got shot by snipers seems like their own fault. There is such a thing as personal responsibility. Seizing farm land for "redistribution"? That would never happen here. Crime rate? Education? Everyone seems to report those are horrible. I think I read something about him changing the currency, but not really fixing the problem at hand. A wrecked economy? Taking over the oil industry?

What about his own coup attempt in 1992? You reap what you sow. Everything he has been doing, whether appearing subtle or not has the stench of socialism / communism, and I do believe he has made it clear a socialist state is his goal . There isn't much democracy in those systems of government.

I'm just curious where you get your news from? I hope you at least read some credible organizations outside of Chavez's little circle of fanboys. I've done most of my reading at Reuters, and they are far from untrusted in the International News Community.

But don't misunderstand my tone. I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just really interested in all the stuff that appears to be going on down there.

[Jale]

Let's go step by step.

While it's not right for the media to manipulate the truth and things of that nature, I still look at the bigger picture of everything he's done and shake my head. It seems like he's doing his fair share of manipulating the media as well. And what the heck is "media democracy"?

That term came from the fact the media was the "president of Venezuela" instead of the actual during the previous 40 years. In other words, the presidents were actually "puppets" controlled by the media in an indirect way.

I'll give you that RCTV has done a lot of questionable things though. But who remains to actually criticize him?

The remaining "Three Horsemen of Apocalypse". The government renewed their licenses last week, but RCTV has just crossed the line. Globovision's license expires in 2013.

I find it hard to believe -everyones- loves him.

Not everyone loves him. Just the excluded people (poor) and many middle class people like me do.

As for the TV station supporting the coupe, I heard they ran cartoons all day after the fact.. And how exactly did they "lead people to their deaths?"

Yep, they were airing cartoons, but the scary thing is that there were subliminal messages. But there was a channel that inserted subliminal messages during the cartoons airing. What channel was that? Surprise! RCTV.

Seizing farm land for "redistribution"? That would never happen here.

That's a measurement to avoid "lazy lands" and latifundism. I mean by "lazy lands" that the owners of large extensions of lands didn't use them to produce food (fruits, grains, vegetables, etc) and the government seized them to put them to good use.

Crime rate? Education? Everyone seems to report those are horrible.

I can't debate here. I agree this is the weakest point of the government. Crime rates are decreasing, but not drastically. We're improving in education, though. Analphabetism has decreased drastically, according to the UNESCO. And you forgot health. With Cuba's help, health rate is increasing, in fact, venezuelan students went to Cuba to study medicine. Now they're in Bolivia assisting people affected by El Niño's incident.

I think I read something about him changing the currency, but not really fixing the problem at hand. A wrecked economy? Taking over the oil industry?

I think you're a bit late about the oil industry. The government took the oil industry back in 2003 after the national oil halt (read about the need of gas to cook on my previous post). Wrecked economy? Not really. People are earning more salary and people is consuming more. He's not changing the currency, let's say he's "adjusting" it. The National Bank made the pertinent studies for like a year already and they agreed with the "adjustment". It will take place next year (2008). The effect is more psychological, by the way, dealing with less zero'es (0) and expanding the use of coins instead of paper.

What about his own coup attempt in 1992?

Read about "El Caracazo" of 1989 and you'll see why it happened.

Everything he has been doing, whether appearing subtle or not has the stench of socialism / communism, and I do believe he has made it clear a socialist state is his goal . There isn't much democracy in those systems of government.

This socialist model is way different from the Cuban and the failed European socialism / communism, which he has called "Socialism of the 21st Century". As far as it's going, it's doing very good, but we always have to deal with those... crybabies from the opposition.

I'm just curious where you get your news from? I hope you at least read some credible organizations outside of Chavez's little circle of fanboys. I've done most of my reading at Reuters, and they are far from untrusted in the International News Community.

I read both pro-government and anti-government news, national and international (such as your favorite Reuters) and see the contrast of both versions and then get my own conclusion.

But don't misunderstand my tone. I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just really interested in all the stuff that appears to be going on down there.

I understand you, but I'm not shouting or increasing my tone either. I'm trying to make things clear to the world outside. This is part of the "War of the Ideas".

[Zach]

I will say they're nuts if they think CNN had anything to do with subliminal messages, intentionally and with malice intended. Unless they have some tape of the channel running anything that is different from the supposed messages that RCTV was running, and even still unless those tapes came from the studios' machines themselves I would treat them with great skepticism.

But why is it necesarry to install a PRO Chavez channel when there are clearly some already? Why not put a neutral station on the air, or a less vicious, different opposition station? This is another example of state controlled media. Their message is the only message you need to hear, because it is the good one. Different opinions are "bad" and cause "conflict"..etc

[Jale]

Glad you understood. You know, near my house there was a protest too. I filmed it and made fun of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6olcjqGMAmc

[Zach]

Well you'll see I got a new post there now as the thoughts came to me, heh..

[Zach]

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/vene...nez0503-03.htm

I think you will find a lot of interesting things in this article.. A lot of the situation now is covered a bit down the page, but reading from the beginning is encouraged to get the full situational coverage. The bit on propoganda and incitement to "not pay taxes" was an appalling interpretation of incitement, period. It also talks about the supposed "manipulation" and "subliminal messaging".

People say a lot worse things in my country, as you probably know. And it has never caused any kind of "rebellion" or conflict. We've always had peaceful protests, with most questionable actions coming down against LOCAL authorities, not federal/military. Surely if the "savage American devils" can do it, the rest of the world can too?

[Jale]

The problem here is that they claim their protests are peaceful, but you'll see they're nothing peacefull later. I'm posting on my college's computer so I cannot access YouTube from here.

[Zach]

Well I've equally seen video on the news, of people and camera crews getting gassed and shot at with rubber bullets, so I think both sides are guilty there.

edit: I keep hearing that people "by the thousands" are streaming down the streets as well. Businesses, doctors, lawyers, students. It doesn't seem like just a few dissenters at this point.. I think I heard earlier protest numbers of 100,000 - not a small number by any measure.