"Stupid" new members and the attitude towards them

[Lefteris_D]

A few hours ago the subject of how we should handle the "stupid" new members as some people call them came up.

The goal of this thread is to hear everyone's suggestions on the matter of how we should handle this situation. So let's see what you think people, you wanted a discussion on the matter? You got it.


Note: Please make this a thread to remember! Use valid and well structured arguments. Avoid any kinds of attacks and bad language or we will have to moderate those posts as always.

[TchuBacha]

By stupid new members do you mean new members that ask questions that have already been answered in other threads?

[-=VampyR=-]

By stupid new members do you mean new members that ask questions that have already been answered in other threads?

Spoiler »

No ! It means hagbard,myself and few others all thrown in dirt by some guy named Neco who thinks he deserves more out of his membership here.

Avoid any kinds of attacks and bad language or we will have to moderate those posts as always.

I will avoid this by not saying anything I really want to say.

If this thing goes into stupid arguments that are not in my favour (so to speak) I WILL leave this place,although I am ashamed to do so because I respect Lefteris_D,a guy who once again showed his good judgement by making this thread.

All the good people that are on this site can be found on other forums too.

Neco just made it into my "Ignore List"...only two people had this pleasure:
jiskmeister
pissinginthewind

Lefteris_D knows who they are,or who he was.

[Jale]

I'm not into flame wars, I don't put people into my ignore list, but in situations like this I ignore people by not replying to them.

[-=VampyR=-]

I'm not into flame wars, I don't put people into my ignore list, but in situations like this I ignore people by not replying to them.

You're cool,that's why I like you.
But I'm quite the opposite.
When someone acts like an ass,I can't just stand there and take it.

The goal of this thread is to hear everyone's suggestions on the matter of how we should handle this situation.

Make a poll on your options:

Who gets banned ?

1.hagbard & -=VampyR=- (and prolly others)
2.Neco & xxxxxxxxxxxx

It's easy Lefteris_D,you're the admin.
The forum must go the way YOU and GHDpro like it.
Get rid of the ones you consider garbage,let's face reality here and not hide behind words.I HATE THAT.
Maybe except meeting hagbard,alcoatjez,montpics and Butters here,I've just wasted my time.

[Lefteris_D]

No unfair bans will be given, that I promice. Do I seem like an unfair person -=VampyR=-?

And besides that you don't look like a stupid person to me. We should get more people LIKE you here.

The forum must go the way YOU and GHDpro like it.

I know GHDpro well enough to say that we are both in favor of the "respect to others and get rid of troublemakers" approach. This has been his way of doing things and it has been mine for a looooong time.

[hagbard]

I think respect should the basis of every forum, everything else is useless fight, flame wars, and chaos. The primary mods task should be to keep the forums a nice, friendly place, and guide the new members if necessary. Respect never was a privilege, is a right. We are all humans, and we should never forget it.

[-=VampyR=-]

We are all humans, and we should never forget it.

Speak for yourself. /me is a genuine vampire.

Back to reality:

I consider this matter closed NOW (at least for me).
It got too much attention which is not needed in this case.
Neco is on my ignore list and so shall be any asswife that tries to prove he's worth anything.

[Zach]

Warning: 6 page response.
If you can't be bothered to read it, don't bother replying TO it. You will have only proven my point for me.

===================
I have a little trouble even thinking about trying to participate in a thread where you asked there be no harshness/personal attacks and otherwise "bad language" when everything I've read so far has been allowed to progress that way.

The manner in which I delivered my message is in no way something I will ever apologize for, because the points I made were valid and are on display even as we discuss the issue.

I don't have a problem with people who can't speak English and don't try to hide it. Although Butters didn't do much writing for OSG, I would like to think we ended our relationship there on good terms. I came to a point in OSG where I was working with several writers (Rocky has done a few reviews) who did not speak English natively.

I like Butters and Rocky (where are you bro?), and they are good people. I would like to think they are both still on friendly terms with me. I had no trouble working with them, and even though I had to take my time to personally rewrite their work so it could be understood by an English reading audience, they were able to clearly communicate what they were talking about in what little English they knew and understood. Their original works are a sharp contrast to most of their posts here, as I am guessing they were writing on the fly and didn't have time to sit down and "think" about how they wanted to say something, like they have the luxury of doing with forum posts.

In the end I let them both go because I simply didn't have the personal time needed to turn-around their submissions. Not because I thought they were stupid, or bad people. I can't recall ever personally going out of my way to put them down, and I actually encouraged them to try and help them become better writers.

The difference between working with them, and trying to talk to certain people on this forum is, I could understand them. You can be Albert Einstein himself, the smartest person in the world and you might be the only person around who had the technical expertise to rescue a baby from a well. But no one cares, if they cannot understand you. Period. Talking to people you cannot understand is frustrating, and unproductive.

The only people feeling resentment here are those who are just unwilling to accept the fact they are disadvantaged. I am far from perfect, and I will be the first to tell anyone so. That being said, there is no reason why I can't try to improve a place I used to love.

I am sick of having to read through posts that don't make sense. They have no proper sentence structure and thus are 50% harder to read than usual. What’s more, a good deal of these posts often come from a member of the moderating staff. That is not a good image to be presenting to the outside world, the world of people you specifically want to attract (intelligent, knowledgeable emulator users).

I am sick of reading posts that have nothing to do with the topic. This happens a lot especially when people are presented with counter points of view. It's like the English speaking Mexican in a lot of movies / TV shows when the cops roll up, they suddenly don't speak English or say something nonsensical that is irrelevant to the topic.

Likewise, I am sick of seeing lots of posts where someone else gave a resolution to the problem, and their answer is quoted and a totally unwarranted "I agree" or equivalent phrase is posted. These posts serve NO purpose. If anyone thinks otherwise, I'd love to hear what you possibly think can justify these types of posts.

And almost certainly I do not like trying to read posts I just can't understand. No proper sentence or grammar structure on top of that. Using wrong words or just seemingly throwing words together.

The overwhelmingly stupid (yes stupid) defense to this has so far been

A - Insisting there is NOT a problem, instead focusing the attention on the fact that I brought the issues up, and the way in which I did so. This is so shallow it can be seen right through, and anyone doing their homework with a forum search / history can clearly see examples of all the practices I've taken note of.

B - Using the fact you don't speak English as a protective blanket all cop-out. This kind of falls in line with example A. There is nothing wrong with being from another country and speaking another language. But simply claiming that not everyone speaks English and that this somehow gives you special status is a farce. Why?
Many countries teach English as a second language
In a lot of international organizations, English is a required second language. Airline pilots for instance are required to know and understand Basic English commands.
You are on a forum that historically has been written in English, on a site historically English, and in the past, boasting many more members from English speaking nations.

Obviously, those of you who are here have already made an effort to know some English - That doesn't relieve you of the chance to make your English better, so that others may understand you more clearly, and so that you make fewer and fewer posts that aren't even comprehendible.

No matter whom you interact with in the world, in whatever language you speak, if people CANNOT understand you, they will not think anything of your opinion, they won't take you seriously, and they won’t have much respect for you. I don't run around forums where I don't understand the language - why? Because I have no business there, I would only cause trouble and confusion.

The other half of the problem here is, even when people who speak English natively post, they are posting unintelligible garbage half the time. They don't spell properly, use idiotic abbreviations and number for letter, or letter for letter substitutions. They write in one big sentence, no commas, and no periods, no anything..

Most importantly. Major problems keep repeating themselves here because no one pro-actively cares or tries to improve things. You don't have people following and setting examples. All you have is a group opinion of "everyone else posts like crap, so I can get away with it too", and a group that constantly reinforces that opinion among each other.

So what happens when someone snaps and goes to town on the forum? They are brushed aside and everyone thinks nothing of it. Because no one wants to put forth the effort, everyone is comfortable with where they are. There are no community role models or rules in place to promote and enforce good grammar and intelligent posting. No one wants to run the risk of alienating themselves from others, their friends, by even trying to enforce these types of rules.

And you know why it would be a waste to bring people in to try and change that at this point? Because everyone would get sick of it. Everyone being reprimanded would start hating the mod(erators) enforcing the rules, and act like he/she is a problem and over-aggressive, or whatever the situation may present as a likely argument Onecalledgod told me the other day how eventually it just became too much to keep up with when he started moderating, and eventually only just had to deal with what seemed to be the most serious infractions (rom links / requests, language etc).

One of the reasons the forum is in such a decrepit state is because of the random nature that appears to go into moderating. Some things slip by while others are dealt with. I mean what about that no bumping old threads rule? What if someone had to contribute some good information on the subject? A new post in most other forums is waste of bandwidth and time when a forum search could reveal an earlier topic to answer already. And as I noted before you even have some staff members who really post what accounts to little more than garbage nonsense, quoting solutions just to say "I agree", and a lot of the other junk around here that is not present on normal forums.

The root cause of the problem has always been the language, spelling & grammar, and other various points that I have brought up. You can't fix the problem unless you find a solution to these things. And you WON'T find a solution when you have a forum of people who are either unwilling to change, or unmotivated. All that happens here is someone points out a problem, and everyone jumps on them to turn the situation around and cause people to forget all mention of the original, often valid points brought up by the person posting initially.

Let's look at this thread. Well structured opinions, don't attack anyone, right?. I've already been mentioned / "attacked" several times. It has already been expressed that those who share my opinion are, "asswifes" - whatever those are.. It should be noted that Vampyr in particular doesn't really care for me - I really could not care.. But why don't you look at his posting habits as of this moment to see what his real problem is.

If this thing goes into stupid arguments that are not in my favor (so to speak) I WILL leave this place

So he already has a predisposed issue with things not turning out in his favor. In the past roughly 24 hours, I have posted in several threads with him & other people. In all those threads I have made statements challenging information or opinions; and in pretty much all those instances I presented well structured, thought out remarks - only to solicit progressively distracting replies that attempted to overlook my claims or shift the topic into another direction, all in an attempt so "save face", or look good in front of others.

I don't swoop down on threads and post derogatory comments just to insult people. I might be a blunt & to the point person, but I don't sit there and post erroneous BS, make wild claims, and then try to back my way out of it. When confronted with opposite opinions I challenge those facts and the basis for them. People might not like my initial attitude when replying to something, but I do far less to provoke people than I do to answer with hard info.

Also in those threads, replies I make to posts that, if anyone were actually reading the thread in progression from one post to the next - anyone reading would clearly see who my replies were to and what they were about. Instead, I get no less than a staff member trying to put a guilt trip on me, because a reply not even meant for them, apparently seemed to upset them personally. On top of all this I still have to deal with people who can’t even detect or comprehend the meanings of sarcasm, or satire, or dark humor.

Just looking at this post, it can clearly be seen someone has an unhealthy obsession with getting the last word in on our arguments, and telling the whole world in any way he can, how bad a person I am. That isn’t healthy to say the least.. But more to the point. This thread was supposed to be moderated if necessary, but I was under attack well before I even had time to see the thread or formulate this reply.

Something else that needs to be pointed out. I never named anyone in my original thread if I recall correctly. It may be sad coincidence that anyone who knew what I was talking about (and thus validated all my claims) was able to attach certain generalizations with other forum members, but that is not my problem. I really am disappointed in Vampyr though (never mind that it is spelled Vampire). He looked as if he really could have contributed to a thread of this nature, but I guess he let's his mind be governed by his passions rather than reasoning.. The only thing I've ever done to him is challenge technicalities in his opinions or posts.. What a sad thing to get mad about.

Finally.. I think the forum should be run the way you want it Lefty. There is no question about who keeps the site and forum operational, however GHD Pro has repeatedly expressed, that he more or less couldn't care what happens here, so I'm not really sure what would motivate him to participate in the problem here. But that is also what it boils down to. All anyone looking at the forum is going to see is that everyone is mad at me, because I upset their vision of the forum, and clearly pointed out how this place is anything but a utopia of emulation information. And to be honest, as I mentioned before, saying that my original thread was a noble idea and then proceeding to "close this piece of crap" doesn't tell me anything about what you are trying to accomplish here. All it does is make me take you less seriously.

Everyone seems to think a list of "rules" as it is, is not going to work. That it will be so long, that no one wants to read it, how my initial post itself was long enough as it was, blah blah blah.. That doesn't sound like the attitude of people who would even want to better their forum, and in the process themselves. Once again, you only need analyze the responses and opinions of others to see just what the real attitude is around here.

It seems like some editing has already gone on here, but I'll just loosely quote something that was said before.

"Neco wants the forum to be run the way he wants"

was the general idea of what was said. It was also said I "hide behind words" or whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. That’s crap. I'm not hiding by words when I express my displeasure in something, and everyone else decides they don't like what was said. It's the people who don't like what's said, and that have had their firm footing pulled out from under them that are having the problem. If someone has the inability to read this whole post, it’s not my problem. The rest of the Internet works like that too, any intelligent debate held on a serious topic in most any normal forum, is going to have long posts like mine; detailing the opinions and perceived problems as witnessed by that particular poster. I’m being chastised for calling people stupid, but at the same time those same people are ridiculing me for using intelligent, thought-out posts that explain my grievance in great detail ? I smell hypocrites.

If you go look at other major forums on the Internet, you will see that "the way Neco wants" is the way a LOT of forums govern themselves. The whole idea that I am calling people stupid and demanding better posting conditions is not me just trying to hate on people. It's a real problem stemming from a real issue. Posting conditions are horrible when you can't understand others half the time. When some rules are seemingly enforced at random, while other infractions are snapped on if the right person jumps on a post and "whines" to the right person. The bottom line throughout this whole ordeal is that I made a point about some serious issues that have been festering here for a long time; everyone else just doesn't want to admit them, and thinks I am now a threat to their own stability, and other people just don't want to get involved so they sit there and say nothing, whether they disagree or not.

There is no fast cure for this Lefty. It's not a matter of writing the shortest possible posting guidelines and hoping people don't get distracted before they finish reading them. It's about enforcement, enforcement, enforcement.

You can't do that if you don't stand up and take a leadership role. You're a nice guy Lefty, and people have taken advantage of that. You don't like to upset the crowd, you want to be on good terms with everyone. That's not a bad quality to have, but it can also burn you too. You have allowed this forum to become what it is because you prefer not displeasing the masses, versus displeasing one person it would be easier to write off and let walk away/ban/ whatever.. This same situation unfolded when Waz finally gave up and left.

He was one of your most critical members, but he was also one of your more down to earth. I can recall from memory that just as much as he could criticize you on something, he could talk to you civilly about other things, and show interest in those things even. But you decided it was easier to just let Waz go, and have him upset with you, as opposed to cracking down on everyone else and have them ALL mad at you. I remember when you tried to crack down before on some rule changes, etc.. And then you folded and went back on it to make everyone happy again. That and the forum resets drove off a lot of good people in the end.

So now you are faced with that situation again.. Let me wander off into the sunset, while giving everyone else the impression you agree with their points of view as they see it. Or sit here and make half-assed threads to "appease" my general sense that some things need to be changed, all the while spouting some "keep it civil and respect everyone" drivel that won't cast you yourself in a negative light or leading anyone else to believe that you actually agree some of them do have problems with posting gibberish that doesn't make sense, and various other things I originally noted in my first post.

This isn't about running the forum the way I want to run it. I don't have this problem on other forums because (gasp), they have people on hand to enforce their particular rules, and they don't constantly backpedal and change things. This isn't about respecting others, or putting them down. I respect everyone here enough to tell them when they are being dumb and give them the chance to change. Smart people can act dumb, just as much as dumb people are. Because you act dumb doesn't mean you ARE dumb. What's really dumb is acting like nothing is wrong, and acting like someone is calling you stupid because they were just bored; it couldn't possibly be because they have a legitimate claim could it?

Life is not fair. Some of us are luckier than others, some of us are poorer than others, some people are better off than others. You want to talk about the real world? This forum is IN the real world, and in the real world people are not going to be nicer and sugar coat your problems for you.

You are not going to attract a better quality of members because you have set the bar so low, they all stay clear. Only those of us hold over from a few years ago are all that's left, and once we're gone. Then I don't even want to think what kind of a mess this place will further plunge into. I've got my own shortcomings. But they are far outweighed by all the problems rampant here; and the fact people refuse to even acknowledge there are problems, except for an Admin who’s arm I've had to twist to get the discussion this far - speaks volumes for the seriousness of the situation.

This really isn't up to me. It's up to the forum members, and the people in charge. All I've done is brought serious issues to the surface. Whether or not anyone else here can handle and overcome them in a mature and serious manner is yet to be seen. How can you even pretend to make this a serious thread when

a) The thread title alone promotes conflict.
b) No one is likely to read this entire reply and actually digest the information contained within it.

In conclusion. What everyone chooses to do where b) is concerned, is ultimately going to decide the fate of this place as a forum for rational, understandable discussions on emulator related issues.

[onewecallgod]

Respect never was a privilege, is a right.

what kind of nonsense is that? respect is earned; it isn't just an entity to be loosely thrown around and given for free. are you suppose to respect those who just spew out drivel? of course not. are you saying that Hitler has a right to be respected even though he killed millions of innocent civilians?

here's a thought: vampy, you post in this thread again, and i'll ban you. your arguments thus far are worthless and without basis, therefore you cannot be trusted to continue. try me.