So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/07/world/main3469450.shtml

(AP) Gunmen opened fire on students returning from a march Wednesday in which 80,000 people denounced President Hugo Chavez's attempts to expand his power. At least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, officials said.

Photographers for The Associated Press saw at least four gunmen -- their faces covered by ski masks or T-shirts -- firing handguns at the anti-Chavez crowd. Terrified students ran through the campus as ambulances arrived.

National Guard troops gathered outside the Central University of Venezuela, the nation's largest and a center for opposition to Chavez's government. Venezuelan law bars state security forces from entering the campus, but Luis Acuna, the minister of higher education, said they could be called in if the university requests them.

Antonio Rivero, director of Venezuela's Civil Defense agency, told local Union Radio that at least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, and that no one had been killed. Earlier, Rivero said he had been informed that one person had died in the violence.

The violence broke out after anti-Chavez demonstrators, led by university students, marched peacefully to the Supreme Court to protest constitutional changes that Venezuelans will consider in a December referendum.

The amendments would abolish presidential term limits, give the president control over the Central Bank and let him create new provinces governed by handpicked officials.

The protesters demand the referendum be suspended, saying the amendments would weaken civil liberties in one of South America's oldest democracies and give Chavez unprecedented power to declare states of emergency.

"Don't allow Venezuela to go down a path that nobody wants to cross," student leader Freddy Guevara told Globovision.

Chavez, who was first elected in 1998, denies the reforms threaten freedom. He says they would instead move Venezuela toward what he calls "21st century socialism."

The Supreme Court is unlikely to act on the students' demands, given that pro-Chavez lawmakers appointed all 32 of its justices.

Hundreds of National Guardsmen and police in riot gear were posted along the march route to prevent clashes between protesters and Chavez sympathizers, but they were restricted from entering the campus.

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Oh jeeze.. So if you want to march down the street you risk being shot for disagreeing with everyone else? :dry:

The whole deal with the TV stations a few months ago, the repeated appointments of loyalists to every branch of government, including the highest court in the country, Plans to get rod if presidential term limitations?

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. Socialism/Communism/all those far lest "Utopian" forms of government have never, in the history of the world, worked.. And this guys sounds more like he's setting up to be Dictator for life, every time I see .

I'm sure you still disagree with me Jale, but I just can't see how things are imprving at all.

Meanwhile all pro Chavez supporters continue to do is attack those that disagree with the, and blame America.. I mean, if we wanted your oil we'd just take it, LOL. Nevermind the fact they claimed we wanted Iraq's oil too, but the USA hasn't seen one drop from Iraq.

With everything going on in the world today, and more importantly, with all the BS politics going on here because of the far left politicians and misguided democrats, I need an outlet for all this junk and so I can call it for the bullshit that it all is.. Maybe I'll finally put up a new site or something.

Why am I not surprised? :dry:

Let me clear the panorama:

These anti-Chávez students are nothing more than attention whores who put shows for the cameras of Globovisión, a CNN ally and heavy critic of Chávez.

Gunmen opened fire on students returning from a march Wednesday in which 80,000 people denounced President Hugo Chavez's attempts to expand his power. At least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, officials said.

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Actually 9 people, 2 by gunfire. They are all fine now.

Photographers for The Associated Press saw at least four gunmen -- their faces covered by ski masks or T-shirts -- firing handguns at the anti-Chavez crowd. Terrified students ran through the campus as ambulances arrived.

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These gunmen are strange people who don't belong to the Central University of Venezuela, but to the Simón Bolívar University, a private university, and these gunmen are part of a student movement caracterized as violent and terrorist. They are not in any way Chávez's supporters.

While anti-Chávez students were marching, pro-Chávez students stood at the Central University of Venezuela working on the campaign for the Constitutional Reform. When these anti-Chávez students came back from a peaceful march, their frustration (because they couldn't set the violence on streets, just like they did last week) led to this act of violence and kept pro-Chávez students as hostages inside a building.

Antonio Rivero, director of Venezuela's Civil Defense agency, told local Union Radio that at least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, and that no one had been killed. Earlier, Rivero said he had been informed that one person had died in the violence.

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No one is dead.

The amendments would abolish presidential term limits, give the president control over the Central Bank and let him create new provinces governed by handpicked officials.

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Bullshit! Presidential term limits will be set to 7 years, the Central Bank must follow the economic sovereignity and these provinces will be picked by votes (art. 136 of the reform proposal).

The protesters demand the referendum be suspended

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They don't want the referendum to be suspended, but to not take place ever, suppressing our rights to vote if we are in favor or against this Constitutional Reform.

...saying the amendments would weaken civil liberties in one of South America's oldest democracies and give Chavez unprecedented power to declare states of emergency.

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The same blah blah blah of the media. They haven't even read the reform proposal and what it's all about.

I'm sure you still disagree with me Jale, but I just can't see how things are imprving at all.

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I disagree, true, but I'm not suprised either. Whenever there's an election coming, these conservative groups explode in violence and the media goes like crazy. The same happened in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006 and now 2007.

"Don't allow Venezuela to go down a path that nobody wants to cross," student leader Freddy Guevara told Globovision.

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Freddy Guevara puts all of us (pro-Chávez and anti-Chávez) into his oven. They (anti-Chávez) are the only ones that don't want to cross that path and it's clearly evident on streets [pro-Chávez marching with happiness (Sunday 11/04/07) and anti-Chávez with hate (Thursday 11/01/07 and yesterday 11/07/07)].

The Supreme Court is unlikely to act on the students' demands, given that pro-Chavez lawmakers appointed all 32 of its justices.

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Then why did they march on the first place?

Let me tell you something. If this group is pretending to get back into power, I say clearly I prefer Chávez, whether he's a dictator or not, than this bunch of crazy goats. The same Otpor! script is being followed in Venezuela, but there's a sure thing: They won't success!

I'm not gonna extend this debate, since it'd be like talking against a wall.

I WILL be responding to this thread in the future when I have some free time, just making that reservation... Most of those responses are... troubling on several levels, but easily rebuked

Jale said:

Let me clear the panorama:

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"Paranoia"

Jale said:

Bullshit! Presidential term limits will be set to 7 years

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Term limits refers to how many times a person may hold a particular office. Length of term refers to how long each of those terms in office last.

Chavez' proposed changes would affect both. (The article I read.)

They would increase the length of term from six to seven years, and they would remove the 2-term limit on the Presidency. Chavez is currently serving his second and final term as President of Venezuela. (Like Venezuela, the US also has a limit of two terms for the Presidency.)

If Chavez' changes go through, there would be no limit to how many terms as President he may serve, and each of those terms would last seven years.


its me im the one clearing the panorama

Lemme clear it even more. There are three giant powers in Venezuela: The government, the media and the population. The media had all the power they wanted before Chávez, now Chávez came and the media is bitching about him with uncountable lies to brainwash the population and then overthrow him, but most of us are not fools and that's why there's polarization among us.

The President of Venezuela will have unlimited terms on the presidency, so what? It's gonna be decided in a Constitutional Referendum, it's what the people want. That is democracy.

The US has a limit of two terms. And? It's not like the US is the model of "democracy" to follow. Sorry, but we don't give a fuck about other countries' government systems, it's all about democracy: What the majority wants. If people wants Chávez to have unlimited terms, then let's go to the referendum and decide if the majority approves.

Why so much controversy about the presidency term from 6 to 7 years? Before Chávez, it was 7 years and no-one said anything.

And besides, the unlimited terms proposal is only the tip of the iceberg, there are other 68 reform proposals which I consider good proposals, because I have already read them and not to follow what the idiot box (TV) says.

Lemme tell you something. 3 years ago (a bit before I joined this forum), believe it or not, I was against Chávez until I found out the truth with my own eyes. I was manipulated by the media. Now reading what this reform is all about by reading all 69 articles, the media manipulation is more evident. What I'm trying to say is I don't believe in Globovisión, Reuters, AP, BBC, CNB, CBS, FOX, CNN and all the letters in the alphabeth.

All I ask is to respect our sovereignty. If this reform will give the president to stay in office for unlimited terms that's because we wanted it. I'm sorry if Bush doesn't like it, but he's not the one to say what other countries should be.

This doesn't have much to do with Bush.. In fact I don't think I've seen him really weigh in on anything.

However, the idea the the ENTIRE - world - media is against one country, is kind of "out there". Another big problem with Chavez is he doesn't know when to lay low. He just walks around PROVOKING other people until they get pissed enough to tell him to shut up, like has happened recently.

As for whether or not the people want something. Did the people come to the government and say abolish the term limit? I very much doubt it. As you can see in America, the idea that because a law or other litigation is proposed by someone representing the people, doesn't necessarrily mean the people asked for it. I very much doubt the whole country is going to get to vote on whether or not they want the term limit abolished either, so it's kind of hard to say the people want it.

I decided to not really come back and argue anymore, because like you said, you've made your decision and nothing is really going to change it. But by that same token I can tell you this. During the initial 2000 election, I went through the same thing. The media was making fun of Bush and calling him an idiot and a goofball and all this stuff - but when I saw some of his policies going into effect, and that he did what he thought was right and didn't care what others said about it, I changed my mind too.

Gore turned out to be a fucking nut case as it is. And we have all these people crying about how the election was stolen but never gave any proof, whining that the government attacked us on 9/11, but can't provide any solid evidence.. It kind of turns you off.

The thing is, despite all that we don't have people shooting each other for protesting and stuff. We don't have our president trying to stay in office forever. He's just there doing his own thing. He believes in what he says, and he does what he says. That's why I like him, he doesn't flip-flop, even if I don't agree with something he does.

History will be the judge of everything, but I doubt it will be very kind to Chavez in the end, as his total grip on power continues to grow. Same thing with Putin over in Russia. Same thing with Musharraf in Pakistan.

All I can say for all of us, is that I hope none of us wakes up one day and say to ourselves, "oh my god, I was wrong - and now it's too late to do anything about it".

9:35am edit:.. sad.. another report on the TV ten minutes ago about a protester being shot =\

And the by the way.. People may not like the US government because of the current administration, but to claim it is not the best model of democracy to follow is laughable.. In USA is so young compared to every other Nation in the world, and has quickly become the single most powerful nation in the world, socially, financially, and of course militarily. Everyone said for years that the USA would fail as a Nation, but it keeps going. People keep immigrating to our shores, and our laws constantly change. In almost no other country in the world can people so openly oppose their administration and its current policies, without fear of being locked up and beaten, or killed.

The fact that our government changes every 4 to 8 years is one of the single reasons why the USA has survived so long. No one party or man can indefinitely force their policies down our throats. Seriously, you say you guys want Chavez to be re-elected for as long as he wants to keep running? Fine.. But what happens when you get sick of him one day, and suddenly find that you can't get rid of him? It's food for thought..

The USA's foreign policy is a legitimate complaint from other nations.. But please don't fool yourself into actually thinking we somehow are NOT the ideal model of a democratic nation. That is simply hated of Bush shining through.. When he's gone the world will most likely, suddenly love us again; and as usual the world will be begging at OUR doorstep via the United Nations, to come in to THEIR countries to keep peace, protect the opressed, and to supply food and monetary aid to their poor afflicted subclasses.


I find it highly ironic that everyone whines about how we meddle in other countries' affairs, when the fact is we are usually invited in by the governing body of any given country. Usually to protect them from hostile neighbors who would wipe them out, or to protect their own citizens from genocides by their own government..

which reminds me ... Since I am here.. Did you earlier in this thread have the BALLS to call Kosovo and the genocide going on there that we stopped, some kind of "script", as in fabricated BS?? It almost sounds like you support Slobodan Milošević. ???? Please correct me if I'm wrong there.


Also remember we are a Democratic REPUBLIC, not a true democracy. Like socialist utopia, a true democracy is a near unobtainable goal. Bottom line here though is, if practically the entire world media is all reporting the same thing is happening inside your country, it's not a chance in hell that there is some "news organization conspiracy" going on. It's very hard to turn a bunch of fiercly independant and competitive news organizations into one giant voice, conspiring to make someone look bad. That just doesn't happen. When the whole of the world media reports something is wrong, it's usually because something is... Not because they decided they hate Hugo Chavez.

2:59pm Nov 29, 2007 ... I'm seeing wide shots of thousands of people opposed to the abolishment of term limits


http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/11/venezuelans_protest_chavezs_re.php

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/071129/w112967A.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313908,00.html

I will await with great interest, the results of the term-limit abolishment vote, to see if it comes in super close, or not..

On a side note.. Do you really support the idea of "communal property" ? What if the government decides you have to share your car with 5 other people? Or give up your residence to someone else and you have to move into some place crappier? What exactly IS communal property?

Does he have plans for communal wages too? I bet that would be fun..


Btw.. I know you said you've seen these marches near your area first hand. Just curious if you ever stop to talk to them? And I don't ean spouting "go home pigs" party line crap, I mean actually talk to them?

Tell FOX, CNN and friends to count again :laugh:

This was in 2006: Presidential Elections.



This is what they covered today:



Tomorrow we will march too.

What is your source for that? I can arbitrarily draw lines on pictures too.

Again, this isn't just local country news here, International Organizations all report the same numbers.

By the way, just by the extrapolation of vehicle sizes, you could easily put tens of thousands of people in that blue space.

Just remember to stop and find some of the "blue" guys to talk to. You should at least be willing to know who and what you're marching against, no matter whose side you believe in

I read the reform and already looked from both points of view. All I can say is that the "blues" are lying about the reform, because it touches the most obscure interests. That's all. The media is a powerful tool. They said so in 2002.

Ok but that doesn't really convince anyone man.. Lying about WHAT exactly?

Everyone on both sides so far has not disputed that he wants to remove the term limit for office. What is the lie? Doing this WOULD allow him to run every election for the rest of his life, and the longer he can do that while IN power, the easier it will be to KEEP power. That's not a lie, that's a proven fact from History - hell Russia is going reverting back to their old corrupt election ways now too.

Maybe you just don't see it, or maybe you just don't want to.. But the entire world is watching this stuff and going "wait a minute..... you're supposed to be preserving freedoms, not systematically removing the safe guards that ensure them".

Thus far, the only thing you have been consistent about is saying that everyone else is lying. The opposition is lying, the other governments in the world are lying, the entire media outside of your country is.... lying. Time and time again I've tried not to outright accuse you of just going along with whatever is happening, but I don't think anyone reading our discussion can be convinced otherwise.

All you can do is claim the opposite of what everyone else in the world is reporting... Would you believe me if the world media published pictures of the USA on fire, nuked, engulfed in civil war; but I told you everything was great and that I'm sitting outside having a BBQ with my friends? That is must be a lie?

It seems like you are so entranced with whatever is going on down there, you just disbelieve everything that doesn't come from the mouth of the great leader himself, even if its right outside on the street


I've remained as respectful as I possibly, possibly can any longer. I don't know if you really believe in this stuff, or you are just falling for some Chavez propoganda, but I challenge anyone else to look over this thread too, and PLEASE point out some proof to me that our dear friend is not brainwashed in some capacity and has fact-driven, evidence cited counter-information to anything I've linked to or mentioned :excl::excl:

Of course the media is a powerful tool.. But who is "they"?? More importantly, do you truly believe that because ONE media organization in your country crossed the line and dispicably became involved in, and tried to influence internal politics - do you truly believe that makes ALL Media bad, liars, irresponsible ?

Because that's basically what you are saying here.. The Associated Press, Reuters... fucking Reuters, are out there lying about what's going on ? Come on man..

p.s Don't misunderstand my passion. You know you're like my bud, I just want to make sure you understand the complexity of your countries situation, because it sounds like you want to know but really aren't getting the whole picture from whoever is telling you things about the opposition and how Chavez lawmaking will impact you in 10 or 20 years time.

Here's a fun little document.. Available in both English and Spanish

http://esdata.info/

http://esdata.info/pdf/derecho-a-elegir.pdf

http://esdata.info/pdf/right-to-vote.pdf

Let me guess.. Lies ? It didn't come from the government everyone is trying to prove is corrupt -so it can't be trusted ?

Nevertheless, Chapters 7 and 9 are extremely good reading.

OMFG! It's almost 2008 and they are still trying to prove the CNE is not transparent... since 2004?!

:biglaugh: Hahaaaa!!!

Great Point

The results are in, and it was a very close vote for sure.

I have to admit Chavez went a lot more quiet than I expected him to, but he said it himself that he'll keep on trying to change the country in a socialist state.

I really do hope you guys don't ever, down the line, become the first Democracy in world history to actually vote yourselves into a dictatorship, but I guess we'll see.

I really am curious to know what you view as so great about socialism though? There isn't a single country on the planet that hasn't tried it and destroyed itself, or been turned into a living hell, like Cuba, Russia - as I covered earlier, CHINA, North Korea, Vietnam. Don't forget another hallmark of socialist governments. No concept of personal property, you belong to the state, DISGUSTING Human Rights violations galore.. I'm pretty sure Chavez already locks up political dissenters, probably doesn't care how they are beaten either; so be on the lookout for mysterious reports in the future. Mass graves, political opposition being squelched overnight, activist friends or relatives starting to disappear one day.

I'm not trying to scare you with fear mongering or anything like that.. I'm just stating on the record, what Socialist governments are all about. So believe me, any man who goes around taunting world leaders, using shady tactics to undercut business and force it out of your country, shady powers for enacting law, and clearly appears to lie to ramble on in agitated states, and make threats - This does not to me, seem like the kind of person you want to run a socialist government, especially the kind of socialism you claim he is going to bring to your country, and how it will be "different".

Socialism is about the people. Control the people, herd the people, clothe the people, work the people, by any mean necesarry, by FORCE against the people.

I don't see what is so great about taking away peoples property rights either, or dictating the work week, food rationing, freezing the assets of foreign companies who had previous agreements over oil production/ownership and kicking them out of the country. Also, this self perpetuated hatred of "rich people" for being rich is just.. unhealthy, and so is lumping in all the college students who protest. What's so spoiled about someone who is investing all the money they have into going to school and getting an education, to have a career and support a better life for themselves and their families?

It seems like at the core, that is all Chavez can do to appeal to the majority; just make them all hate the rich people and blame everything on them.

It would be really interesting to hear your personal views on the matter.. What kind of "tactics" you support, and why you believe in Chavez? I just don't see how people can think so much about a person who thumbs his nose at the world community.. Makes friends with countries like Cuba and of all others, Iran. Wants to jack up oil prices, and at the same time use the oil market to blackmail OTHER countries (The USA included).

What does he think he's going to do when the USA and other countries don't need his oil, or oil from other places? We are seeing more hybrid vehicles on the road every year, we are developing hydrogen fuel cell cars, utilizing wind power, and solar power. One day we are not going to need oil, and I think it is foolish to think that the US would fight a real war over oil; and no contrary to popular belief, that is NOT why we invaded Iraq.. we get very LITTLE oil from them. We import more oil from Venezuela and Saudi Arabia than we do from Iraq. We actually get the majority of our oil from Canada, to the North.

Are you aware that your country is a one industry nation? You guys produce oil. And following every boom in the industry, when demand is high and prices are good, your economy suffers a huge loss where it comes crashing down. Given what Chavez is looking to do with your Central Bank (I'm sure he's LOVE to be able to just print money whenever he wants it in a futile attempt to stamp out inflation and other social monetary issues) and seizing all of the oil industry for himself, plus this insane "rule by decree, no need to APPROVE laws" thing he has going for himself - he IS going to run your country into the ground.. Hard.

I don't know what it will take to get you to actually believe the media outside your own country, free from Chavez's "Say this or we'll shut you down" influence, but you might feel a lot differently about things if you actually got some in-biased inforation (even my opinions are baised, though largely by pure emotion and not much else).

Yeah, it's a shame the reform wasn't approved, but I feel optimistic and proud. Even though I voted for this reform to be approved, I accepted the results. Of course my optimism increased when Chávez said "We couldn't do it... for now", the very same lines he said 15 years ago.

The sad thing is that the difference was too close, less than 150,000 votes. In comparison with last year election, a huge difference of 3,000,000 votes. I'm afraid people got carried away by the missinformation campaign of anti-Chávez media.

The good thing it ended with no violence. Pro-Chávez people didn't seek confrontation after results.

You sound surprised that his supporters didn't get violent? That's a bit different than in the past when you have maintained anti-chavez supporters are the ones causing the violence..

I'm still looking for info though.. Why personally did you support the referendum, and more importantly which parts did you support/no support that were the most important.


By the way.. You keep talking about anti-chavez media lying, spreading misinformation.. But I never see any examples, no matter how many times I seem to ask? That's a serious accusation to make continuously, and then to treat it like I just have to take your word on it... If it were me, and I didn't post links already I'm sure you would want to see them too.


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I'll give him props in the humor department though.. That whole "weapons bust" deal, which he probably had staged, was a great way to make sure he had intimidating looking armed soldiers around "the keep the peace".

Oh, you know the whole term limit thing he pushed? Tell me what is wrong with this quote?

"If God gives me life and help," Chavez said, "I will be at the head of the government until 2050!" - when he would be 95 years old.

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http://news.aol.com/story/_a/chavez-backers-rally-for-charter-changes/n20071130235809990002

Does that sound like the battle cry of a benevolent, misrepresented leader who just wants to help his people? Again, just pick up a history book and you'll see everyone who spoke like that.... It didn't turn out good for the or their followers. Quite a few good points made in that news report.. Why would Chavez's own people defect

And seriously, why is he threatening CNN? CNN is not Globovision, and furthermore he is starting to sound like a mad man in some respects.. I don't blame him for being paranoid of a coup' but seeing as how HE came to power by leading one, why is it not appropriate that one would take him out? This supposed assasination call, could have been put together by anyone at the spanish language network station, without the main corporation knowing anyting about it. Aside from that, I'd personally want to see a screen capture of this image to see if it was a glitch with the news prompter or something.

This whole American "empire" thing is also old too.. Where is his evidence of this vast Imperialist American Empire? We live in a GLOBAL market these days. Companies compete everywhere, and the only incentives we give out are to nations that have PROVEN to be friendly to us, and been equally kind in response to our own kindness - and we STILL make absurd deals with horrible governments to get them to behave and play nice with the rest of the world.

Did you know that in addition to being the richest country in the world, we are almost THE MOST GENEROUS WITH OUR MONEY?
I don't mean government aid either. Our government does a LOT to help other countries as it is, but as individuals, Americans contribute an ungodly amount of money to foreign charities and other organizations that help aid the world. In some cases we have to donate/help anonymously because some governments hate us SO much they would rather let their people SUFFER than accept our help.

How fucked up is that? Meanwhile Chavez puts on a pretty boy face, comes to the UN, on "Imperial" soil, and then proceeds to fake compassion out of his ass by offering a little free heating oil to a few thousand people - who likely would have gotten assistance from our own government anyway. You know why we hate him so much? Because he's a fake.

Americans can smell fakes a mile away. Especially since we watch unregulated news channels on UHF/VHF/SAT/Cable/Internet stations.

Sorry for my tone here, but Chavez is just an idiot if he thinks he can do anything to hurt us by cutting off our oil, or calling us names like Imperialist, wen he likely doesn't even know himself, the definition.

Socialism is a perfectly sound theory and properly implemented would produce a wonderful society.

The problem is that it never works in real terms because people aren't predisposed to consider the greater good or be philanthropic in large numbers. So socialism combined with our innate pragmatic and nihhilistic tendencies produces the kind of downtrodden, economically bereft societies you see in socialist states all over the globe.

Humans sadly are just too self serving and corruptible for socialism to ever work on a national scale.

In fairness Capitalism and Democracy is little better in terms of corruption, and imbalance of power, but at least people in a Democracy have the potential to change their lot in life and can aspire to a standard of living based on their drive, intellect and ambition.

You're right, Socialism on its own is a very interesting concept. Whether I'd want it sill, under even an ideal situation, I don't know.. But on planet Earth, the facts will always remain, Socialism will ruin any and every country it touches, because of the men it puts into power, just like you said.

Socialism is great for Chavez. He doesn't have to wait in line and fight over food and milk, he just puts on a happy face and tosses the poorest folks a bone, then gets them to do the fighting amongst themselves/his enemies for him.

What better way to turn your people against each other than to call everyone who doesn't agree with you, and your socialist policies a traitor to their country?

Before I start, I must say that I am impressed with the argument I've been reading. Zach, I am particularly impressed with your arguments and rebukes because you made your case logically and with citation. I believe the debate I've been reading holds more integrity that live debates I've witnessed featuring elected officials. Although I do not agree with Jale's stance and do not find the sufficient validity in his stance, I respect his involvement in politics nonetheless.

I wish everyone paid attention to the world and cared as you two do. Yes you may be on opposites sides, but you both similar in the since you both show conviction and determination in your views. You both want what is best for the country of Venezuela, but simply have different view points.

However, I must concur with Zach's argument. Neither dictatorships nor communism has worked. Now I'm sure that there are some nice things in Chavez's plans for reform that you would enjoy. But I would also like to say that I'm sure the mouse enjoyed the cheese very much before the trap snapped down on it's neck. I've read what you've had to say Jale, and I can tell your a very intelligent person. As I said before, although I agree with Zach, I commend you for stating your opinion.