So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela

[Zach]

Ok but that doesn't really convince anyone man.. Lying about WHAT exactly?

Everyone on both sides so far has not disputed that he wants to remove the term limit for office. What is the lie? Doing this WOULD allow him to run every election for the rest of his life, and the longer he can do that while IN power, the easier it will be to KEEP power. That's not a lie, that's a proven fact from History - hell Russia is going reverting back to their old corrupt election ways now too.

Maybe you just don't see it, or maybe you just don't want to.. But the entire world is watching this stuff and going "wait a minute..... you're supposed to be preserving freedoms, not systematically removing the safe guards that ensure them".

Thus far, the only thing you have been consistent about is saying that everyone else is lying. The opposition is lying, the other governments in the world are lying, the entire media outside of your country is.... lying. Time and time again I've tried not to outright accuse you of just going along with whatever is happening, but I don't think anyone reading our discussion can be convinced otherwise.

All you can do is claim the opposite of what everyone else in the world is reporting... Would you believe me if the world media published pictures of the USA on fire, nuked, engulfed in civil war; but I told you everything was great and that I'm sitting outside having a BBQ with my friends? That is must be a lie?

It seems like you are so entranced with whatever is going on down there, you just disbelieve everything that doesn't come from the mouth of the great leader himself, even if its right outside on the street


I've remained as respectful as I possibly, possibly can any longer. I don't know if you really believe in this stuff, or you are just falling for some Chavez propoganda, but I challenge anyone else to look over this thread too, and PLEASE point out some proof to me that our dear friend is not brainwashed in some capacity and has fact-driven, evidence cited counter-information to anything I've linked to or mentioned

Of course the media is a powerful tool.. But who is "they"?? More importantly, do you truly believe that because ONE media organization in your country crossed the line and dispicably became involved in, and tried to influence internal politics - do you truly believe that makes ALL Media bad, liars, irresponsible ?

Because that's basically what you are saying here.. The Associated Press, Reuters... fucking Reuters, are out there lying about what's going on ? Come on man..

p.s Don't misunderstand my passion. You know you're like my bud, I just want to make sure you understand the complexity of your countries situation, because it sounds like you want to know but really aren't getting the whole picture from whoever is telling you things about the opposition and how Chavez lawmaking will impact you in 10 or 20 years time.

[Zach]

Here's a fun little document.. Available in both English and Spanish

http://esdata.info/

http://esdata.info/pdf/derecho-a-elegir.pdf

http://esdata.info/pdf/right-to-vote.pdf

Let me guess.. Lies ? It didn't come from the government everyone is trying to prove is corrupt -so it can't be trusted ?

Nevertheless, Chapters 7 and 9 are extremely good reading.

[Jale]

OMFG! It's almost 2008 and they are still trying to prove the CNE is not transparent... since 2004?!

Hahaaaa!!!

[Zach]

Great Point

[Zach]

The results are in, and it was a very close vote for sure.

I have to admit Chavez went a lot more quiet than I expected him to, but he said it himself that he'll keep on trying to change the country in a socialist state.

I really do hope you guys don't ever, down the line, become the first Democracy in world history to actually vote yourselves into a dictatorship, but I guess we'll see.

I really am curious to know what you view as so great about socialism though? There isn't a single country on the planet that hasn't tried it and destroyed itself, or been turned into a living hell, like Cuba, Russia - as I covered earlier, CHINA, North Korea, Vietnam. Don't forget another hallmark of socialist governments. No concept of personal property, you belong to the state, DISGUSTING Human Rights violations galore.. I'm pretty sure Chavez already locks up political dissenters, probably doesn't care how they are beaten either; so be on the lookout for mysterious reports in the future. Mass graves, political opposition being squelched overnight, activist friends or relatives starting to disappear one day.

I'm not trying to scare you with fear mongering or anything like that.. I'm just stating on the record, what Socialist governments are all about. So believe me, any man who goes around taunting world leaders, using shady tactics to undercut business and force it out of your country, shady powers for enacting law, and clearly appears to lie to ramble on in agitated states, and make threats - This does not to me, seem like the kind of person you want to run a socialist government, especially the kind of socialism you claim he is going to bring to your country, and how it will be "different".

Socialism is about the people. Control the people, herd the people, clothe the people, work the people, by any mean necesarry, by FORCE against the people.

I don't see what is so great about taking away peoples property rights either, or dictating the work week, food rationing, freezing the assets of foreign companies who had previous agreements over oil production/ownership and kicking them out of the country. Also, this self perpetuated hatred of "rich people" for being rich is just.. unhealthy, and so is lumping in all the college students who protest. What's so spoiled about someone who is investing all the money they have into going to school and getting an education, to have a career and support a better life for themselves and their families?

It seems like at the core, that is all Chavez can do to appeal to the majority; just make them all hate the rich people and blame everything on them.

It would be really interesting to hear your personal views on the matter.. What kind of "tactics" you support, and why you believe in Chavez? I just don't see how people can think so much about a person who thumbs his nose at the world community.. Makes friends with countries like Cuba and of all others, Iran. Wants to jack up oil prices, and at the same time use the oil market to blackmail OTHER countries (The USA included).

What does he think he's going to do when the USA and other countries don't need his oil, or oil from other places? We are seeing more hybrid vehicles on the road every year, we are developing hydrogen fuel cell cars, utilizing wind power, and solar power. One day we are not going to need oil, and I think it is foolish to think that the US would fight a real war over oil; and no contrary to popular belief, that is NOT why we invaded Iraq.. we get very LITTLE oil from them. We import more oil from Venezuela and Saudi Arabia than we do from Iraq. We actually get the majority of our oil from Canada, to the North.

Are you aware that your country is a one industry nation? You guys produce oil. And following every boom in the industry, when demand is high and prices are good, your economy suffers a huge loss where it comes crashing down. Given what Chavez is looking to do with your Central Bank (I'm sure he's LOVE to be able to just print money whenever he wants it in a futile attempt to stamp out inflation and other social monetary issues) and seizing all of the oil industry for himself, plus this insane "rule by decree, no need to APPROVE laws" thing he has going for himself - he IS going to run your country into the ground.. Hard.

I don't know what it will take to get you to actually believe the media outside your own country, free from Chavez's "Say this or we'll shut you down" influence, but you might feel a lot differently about things if you actually got some in-biased inforation (even my opinions are baised, though largely by pure emotion and not much else).

[Jale]

Yeah, it's a shame the reform wasn't approved, but I feel optimistic and proud. Even though I voted for this reform to be approved, I accepted the results. Of course my optimism increased when Chávez said "We couldn't do it... for now", the very same lines he said 15 years ago.

The sad thing is that the difference was too close, less than 150,000 votes. In comparison with last year election, a huge difference of 3,000,000 votes. I'm afraid people got carried away by the missinformation campaign of anti-Chávez media.

The good thing it ended with no violence. Pro-Chávez people didn't seek confrontation after results.

[Zach]

You sound surprised that his supporters didn't get violent? That's a bit different than in the past when you have maintained anti-chavez supporters are the ones causing the violence..

I'm still looking for info though.. Why personally did you support the referendum, and more importantly which parts did you support/no support that were the most important.


By the way.. You keep talking about anti-chavez media lying, spreading misinformation.. But I never see any examples, no matter how many times I seem to ask? That's a serious accusation to make continuously, and then to treat it like I just have to take your word on it... If it were me, and I didn't post links already I'm sure you would want to see them too.


------


I'll give him props in the humor department though.. That whole "weapons bust" deal, which he probably had staged, was a great way to make sure he had intimidating looking armed soldiers around "the keep the peace".

Oh, you know the whole term limit thing he pushed? Tell me what is wrong with this quote?

"If God gives me life and help," Chavez said, "I will be at the head of the government until 2050!" - when he would be 95 years old.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/chavez-...30235809990002

Does that sound like the battle cry of a benevolent, misrepresented leader who just wants to help his people? Again, just pick up a history book and you'll see everyone who spoke like that.... It didn't turn out good for the or their followers. Quite a few good points made in that news report.. Why would Chavez's own people defect

And seriously, why is he threatening CNN? CNN is not Globovision, and furthermore he is starting to sound like a mad man in some respects.. I don't blame him for being paranoid of a coup' but seeing as how HE came to power by leading one, why is it not appropriate that one would take him out? This supposed assasination call, could have been put together by anyone at the spanish language network station, without the main corporation knowing anyting about it. Aside from that, I'd personally want to see a screen capture of this image to see if it was a glitch with the news prompter or something.

This whole American "empire" thing is also old too.. Where is his evidence of this vast Imperialist American Empire? We live in a GLOBAL market these days. Companies compete everywhere, and the only incentives we give out are to nations that have PROVEN to be friendly to us, and been equally kind in response to our own kindness - and we STILL make absurd deals with horrible governments to get them to behave and play nice with the rest of the world.

Did you know that in addition to being the richest country in the world, we are almost THE MOST GENEROUS WITH OUR MONEY?
I don't mean government aid either. Our government does a LOT to help other countries as it is, but as individuals, Americans contribute an ungodly amount of money to foreign charities and other organizations that help aid the world. In some cases we have to donate/help anonymously because some governments hate us SO much they would rather let their people SUFFER than accept our help.

How fucked up is that? Meanwhile Chavez puts on a pretty boy face, comes to the UN, on "Imperial" soil, and then proceeds to fake compassion out of his ass by offering a little free heating oil to a few thousand people - who likely would have gotten assistance from our own government anyway. You know why we hate him so much? Because he's a fake.

Americans can smell fakes a mile away. Especially since we watch unregulated news channels on UHF/VHF/SAT/Cable/Internet stations.

Sorry for my tone here, but Chavez is just an idiot if he thinks he can do anything to hurt us by cutting off our oil, or calling us names like Imperialist, wen he likely doesn't even know himself, the definition.

[FatTrucker]

Socialism is a perfectly sound theory and properly implemented would produce a wonderful society.

The problem is that it never works in real terms because people aren't predisposed to consider the greater good or be philanthropic in large numbers. So socialism combined with our innate pragmatic and nihhilistic tendencies produces the kind of downtrodden, economically bereft societies you see in socialist states all over the globe.

Humans sadly are just too self serving and corruptible for socialism to ever work on a national scale.

In fairness Capitalism and Democracy is little better in terms of corruption, and imbalance of power, but at least people in a Democracy have the potential to change their lot in life and can aspire to a standard of living based on their drive, intellect and ambition.

[Zach]

You're right, Socialism on its own is a very interesting concept. Whether I'd want it sill, under even an ideal situation, I don't know.. But on planet Earth, the facts will always remain, Socialism will ruin any and every country it touches, because of the men it puts into power, just like you said.

Socialism is great for Chavez. He doesn't have to wait in line and fight over food and milk, he just puts on a happy face and tosses the poorest folks a bone, then gets them to do the fighting amongst themselves/his enemies for him.

What better way to turn your people against each other than to call everyone who doesn't agree with you, and your socialist policies a traitor to their country?

[Hrothgar]

Before I start, I must say that I am impressed with the argument I've been reading. Zach, I am particularly impressed with your arguments and rebukes because you made your case logically and with citation. I believe the debate I've been reading holds more integrity that live debates I've witnessed featuring elected officials. Although I do not agree with Jale's stance and do not find the sufficient validity in his stance, I respect his involvement in politics nonetheless.

I wish everyone paid attention to the world and cared as you two do. Yes you may be on opposites sides, but you both similar in the since you both show conviction and determination in your views. You both want what is best for the country of Venezuela, but simply have different view points.

However, I must concur with Zach's argument. Neither dictatorships nor communism has worked. Now I'm sure that there are some nice things in Chavez's plans for reform that you would enjoy. But I would also like to say that I'm sure the mouse enjoyed the cheese very much before the trap snapped down on it's neck. I've read what you've had to say Jale, and I can tell your a very intelligent person. As I said before, although I agree with Zach, I commend you for stating your opinion.