Chavez

Every time he puts Venezuela in the news it gets better and better. Now he's ripping down freedom of speech, because it's the opposition?

I bet Castro calls him "Mini Me".

Butters... surely your people don't actually like this guy? He's turning your country into a dictatorship one step at a time. Be careful you don't end up like China with regulated Internet, next...

Re: LOL @ Chavez

Do you think the news say the truth about Venezuela? It's not a matter of freedom of speech, it's a matter of media democracy.

Here's the truth. Radio Caracas Television (RCTV) was under the channel 2 and the government is the owner of that spectrum. If we roll back in 2002 where there was a huge fuck-up (Coup d' etat), RCTV had a huge participation moving the masses to the Miraflores Palace (where Chávez is) along with other media, being Venevisión, Televen and Globovisión the main ones. They're known here as "The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse".

With the failure of 2002's coup, they did it again in 2003 convoking a national halt, messing with the oil and leading us to a very deep poverty. Believe me, I lived that. It was a pain in the ass to get gas to cook and oil for our cars, Thanks to the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" (RCTV, VV, GB and TV).

But why RCTV and not the others? Because that channel has violated most of the "Radio and TV Responsability Law", which includes lying and manipulating the truth. VV (Venevisión) also participated in the coup, but they stopped manipulating the truth since 2005.

That manipulation lead people to their death (see coup of 2002). There were snipers on the buildings!

A recent case, it happened yesterday. The people who were protesting were acting very agressive towards the police by hitting them with rocks and bottles. The media said it was in the inverse way: The police was hitting the people who were protesting "pacifically". That is manipulation.

Besides, do you know what RCTV was showing? Little girls dancing Reggaeton? And almost naked? (mini skirt, etc). Dude, that was almost pedophila! Exposing a little girl's body on TV and she wasn't even 8 years old!

Freedom of speech? No, dude. That was Libertinism of Speech and we had enough of trash like RCTV. And guess what? RCTV is coming back in June 1st, but through cable. Was that a closure? A hit to "freedom of speech"?

The owner of RCTV DIDN'T say RCTV is coming back through cable to keep the streets "on fire" and letting you think in Venezuela there's a dictatorship.

My friends, the media is lying. The ones who are protesting against the "closure" of RCTV are just crybabies, making this damn thing even bigger and bigger; an international scandal. They're just making a drama for the world to see...

And to finish... just let them cry. They'll eventually forget this. The media has been showing only the negative shit about Chávez and Venezuela for like... 8 years! CNN and FOX News are helping with the manipulation. We're used to it.

And to answer your last question, yes, we like him. While those pussies were crying, we were celebrating!

Re: LOL @ Chavez

While it's not right for the media to manipulate the truth and things of that nature, I still look at the bigger picture of everything he's done and shake my head. It seems like he's doing his fair share of manipulating the media as well. And what the heck is "media democracy"? That sounds like some cheap term to be honest. It's funny how everyone in the media that supports him and provides hardly any negative coverage receive lot's more funding and support as well. I'll give you that RCTV has done a lot of questionable things though. But who remains to actually criticize him? I find it hard to believe -everyones- loves him.

As for the TV station supporting the coupe, I heard they ran cartoons all day after the fact.. And how exactly did they "lead people to their deaths?" If they got shot by snipers seems like their own fault. There is such a thing as personal responsibility. Seizing farm land for "redistribution"? That would never happen here. Crime rate? Education? Everyone seems to report those are horrible. I think I read something about him changing the currency, but not really fixing the problem at hand. A wrecked economy? Taking over the oil industry?

What about his own coup attempt in 1992? You reap what you sow. Everything he has been doing, whether appearing subtle or not has the stench of socialism / communism, and I do believe he has made it clear a socialist state is his goal . There isn't much democracy in those systems of government.

I'm just curious where you get your news from? I hope you at least read some credible organizations outside of Chavez's little circle of fanboys. I've done most of my reading at Reuters, and they are far from untrusted in the International News Community.

But don't misunderstand my tone. I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just really interested in all the stuff that appears to be going on down there.

Re: LOL @ Chavez

Let's go step by step.

Zach said:

While it's not right for the media to manipulate the truth and things of that nature, I still look at the bigger picture of everything he's done and shake my head. It seems like he's doing his fair share of manipulating the media as well. And what the heck is "media democracy"?

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That term came from the fact the media was the "president of Venezuela" instead of the actual during the previous 40 years. In other words, the presidents were actually "puppets" controlled by the media in an indirect way.

I'll give you that RCTV has done a lot of questionable things though. But who remains to actually criticize him?

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The remaining "Three Horsemen of Apocalypse". The government renewed their licenses last week, but RCTV has just crossed the line. Globovision's license expires in 2013.

I find it hard to believe -everyones- loves him.

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Not everyone loves him. Just the excluded people (poor) and many middle class people like me do.

As for the TV station supporting the coupe, I heard they ran cartoons all day after the fact.. And how exactly did they "lead people to their deaths?"

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Yep, they were airing cartoons, but the scary thing is that there were subliminal messages. But there was a channel that inserted subliminal messages during the cartoons airing. What channel was that? Surprise! RCTV.

Seizing farm land for "redistribution"? That would never happen here.

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That's a measurement to avoid "lazy lands" and latifundism. I mean by "lazy lands" that the owners of large extensions of lands didn't use them to produce food (fruits, grains, vegetables, etc) and the government seized them to put them to good use.

Crime rate? Education? Everyone seems to report those are horrible.

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I can't debate here. I agree this is the weakest point of the government. Crime rates are decreasing, but not drastically. We're improving in education, though. Analphabetism has decreased drastically, according to the UNESCO. And you forgot health. With Cuba's help, health rate is increasing, in fact, venezuelan students went to Cuba to study medicine. Now they're in Bolivia assisting people affected by El Niño's incident.

I think I read something about him changing the currency, but not really fixing the problem at hand. A wrecked economy? Taking over the oil industry?

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I think you're a bit late about the oil industry. The government took the oil industry back in 2003 after the national oil halt (read about the need of gas to cook on my previous post). Wrecked economy? Not really. People are earning more salary and people is consuming more. He's not changing the currency, let's say he's "adjusting" it. The National Bank made the pertinent studies for like a year already and they agreed with the "adjustment". It will take place next year (2008). The effect is more psychological, by the way, dealing with less zero'es (0) and expanding the use of coins instead of paper.

What about his own coup attempt in 1992?

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Read about "El Caracazo" of 1989 and you'll see why it happened.

Everything he has been doing, whether appearing subtle or not has the stench of socialism / communism, and I do believe he has made it clear a socialist state is his goal . There isn't much democracy in those systems of government.

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This socialist model is way different from the Cuban and the failed European socialism / communism, which he has called "Socialism of the 21st Century". As far as it's going, it's doing very good, but we always have to deal with those... crybabies from the opposition.

I'm just curious where you get your news from? I hope you at least read some credible organizations outside of Chavez's little circle of fanboys. I've done most of my reading at Reuters, and they are far from untrusted in the International News Community.

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I read both pro-government and anti-government news, national and international (such as your favorite Reuters) and see the contrast of both versions and then get my own conclusion.

But don't misunderstand my tone. I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just really interested in all the stuff that appears to be going on down there.

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I understand you, but I'm not shouting or increasing my tone either. I'm trying to make things clear to the world outside. This is part of the "War of the Ideas".

I will say they're nuts if they think CNN had anything to do with subliminal messages, intentionally and with malice intended. Unless they have some tape of the channel running anything that is different from the supposed messages that RCTV was running, and even still unless those tapes came from the studios' machines themselves I would treat them with great skepticism.

But why is it necesarry to install a PRO Chavez channel when there are clearly some already? Why not put a neutral station on the air, or a less vicious, different opposition station? This is another example of state controlled media. Their message is the only message you need to hear, because it is the good one. Different opinions are "bad" and cause "conflict"..etc

Glad you understood. You know, near my house there was a protest too. I filmed it and made fun of it :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6olcjqGMAmc

Well you'll see I got a new post there now as the thoughts came to me, heh..

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/venezuela/venez0503-03.htm

I think you will find a lot of interesting things in this article.. A lot of the situation now is covered a bit down the page, but reading from the beginning is encouraged to get the full situational coverage. The bit on propoganda and incitement to "not pay taxes" was an appalling interpretation of incitement, period. It also talks about the supposed "manipulation" and "subliminal messaging".

People say a lot worse things in my country, as you probably know. And it has never caused any kind of "rebellion" or conflict. We've always had peaceful protests, with most questionable actions coming down against LOCAL authorities, not federal/military. Surely if the "savage American devils" can do it, the rest of the world can too?

The problem here is that they claim their protests are peaceful, but you'll see they're nothing peacefull later. I'm posting on my college's computer so I cannot access YouTube from here.

Well I've equally seen video on the news, of people and camera crews getting gassed and shot at with rubber bullets, so I think both sides are guilty there.

edit: I keep hearing that people "by the thousands" are streaming down the streets as well. Businesses, doctors, lawyers, students. It doesn't seem like just a few dissenters at this point.. I think I heard earlier protest numbers of 100,000 - not a small number by any measure.

Thousands? Nah. Those are just violence focus of just 200-500 protesters. In conjuntion? Maybe. They're just 100,000 out of 4,000,000 who voted against the president. Just a minority, the extreme right wing. And the students are not "all" of them.

Talking about the king of Rome, the president has spoken this afternoon. Globovision, another anti-Chávez channel is openly calling to kill the president, using Pope John Paul II's assassination attempt and a background music titled "Have Faith, We Are Not Done Yet". That's terrorism. I wonder how Bush would react to this if it were towards him.

Also, Chacao's mayor, Leopoldo López, was the one who convoked the student protests, but there was a detail about it: He said "protest in a not pacific way" (that may sound weird in English, since Spanish grammar is different).

Things are heating up now. The story of the coup attempt of 2002 is repeating... They're calling up another national halt.

Bush would shrug it off, like the assasination film that featured him getting shot that was made by Europeans, I believe. Rage Against the Machine was seen on tape saying the president should be "hung and shot, and tried" (leave it to Anarchists to fuck up the common sense order of those events) and aside from the media spicing it up... No one really cared.

The pope being shot video, however it can be construed, is still a far leap to say they are telling people to kill him. It could have a dozen different meanings, and unless they are implicitly saying the words "We have to kill him" it won't really hold up as a credible connection.

As for inciting violence, was it not Chavez telling his supporters to go down to the protesters to *confront* them?

Using his/administrations own reasoning and weak interpretations of inciting violence, propoganda etc, we can come to the conclusion he is telling them to go start fighting with them all the same. That road goes both ways unfortunately.

I still take issue with the fact people think this is "not like Cuba". The man has close ties to Cuba, and Castro is his IDOL. People want to be just like their idols, not change their strategies, etc. Otherwise they wouldn't idolize them. And I'm sure he is busy meddling with the affairs of neighboring countries' politics too.

It still stands to reason that if he was truly about putting a good face on things, and this democracy stuff, these stations should be getting legal action levied against them for some of the outrageous things they are allegedly doing. Bringing all these institutions under state control is only going to succeed in causing them to eventually fail when his government does.

He may have given the poor a little more money in their pocket (and that is the only true reason they like him) but all these policies are also driving off your middle class and educated persons, most fleeing to other countries, the US not withstanding. It's going to bleed dry Venezuela's talent pool, and all you'll have left is a 2nd rate country with a 3rd world government.

Zach said:

As for inciting violence, was it not Chavez telling his supporters to go down to the protesters to *confront* them?

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He said to his people to stay alert and to not fall in provocations, in other words, constant vigilance and denounce every movement the crybabies are making. If (the magic word here is "IF") things get a lot worse he will intevene along with his supporters. As long as protests are pacific as they say, everything will go fine, for us and for them. We're hoping this is not going to happen.

He may have given the poor a little more money in their pocket (and that is the only true reason they like him) but all these policies are also driving off your middle class and educated persons, most fleeing to other countries, the US not withstanding. It's going to bleed dry Venezuela's talent pool, and all you'll have left is a 2nd rate country with a 3rd world government.

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Most of us have been saying this: We don't need the ones who are leaving. They're fleeing to other countries, then have my bye-byes and I hope they never return.

Do you know ORVEX? It means "Organización de Venezolanos en el Exilio" (Venezuelans in Exile Organization), but the funny part is that they have autoproclamated in "exile". Those bastards are the masterminds of the murder of Danilo Anderson and now they're under the custody of the US Government, just like Posada Carriles. They've never been kicked out of the country, in fact, they ran away like cowards to Miami, where they're now and founded that organization to supposely represent and assist the "venezuelans in exile" while they're constantly conspiring against the venezuelan government. I'm pretty sure they're the masterminds behind these violence focus in Venezuela. By just looking at their website, which has been shut down by who fuck knows, you can see what are their intentions: How to make molotov bombs, Chávez supporter huntings, yeah, that means killing. Thank God this Chavist hunting thing didn't happen, at least not yet. The future is uncertain.

These are confusing times, my friend. We have a lot of things to deal with here; the media, the crybabies, the leaders from both government and opposition, etc... and just because of a "closure" of a TV channel. This has gone too far now. They're now offering a conference press. Let's see what they have to say now...

Pacific protests, bullshit.

The word you're looking for is pacifist, by the way..

It may be easy to lump all these people into groups like you've been doing, but it's not really going to help anyone understand much. Sure, it's easy to say "let them leave, we don't need them" but the thing is, your country DOES need them. This is one of the key factors that elevated the US to it's post WWII super power status. We took in all the outcast, dejected, persecuted, scientists from other countries; they in turn flourished in the US and were free to pursue their own studies without fear of reprisal because of their race, religion, or political persuasion. ALL these countries lost out for years, and have clearly become bitter to this day because of it.

Driving off all the intellects and technology specialists & researchers is only going to hurt your country; and isn't a little conveniant that all the people leaving are the violent blood thirsty ones who all want to kill Chavez? All the opposition in the country wants everyone to kill him? Sounds like spoonfed paranoia / propoganda to me if you truly believe you can lump all these people into the same group or even remotely generalize them together.

The damage this man is going to cause to your country is not going to be apparent. It will be recognized in the future, perhaps a few years from now, perhaps longer. But time and time again History has shown with others, that all his supporters won't realize they were duped until it is far too late and they no longer have the power to confront him short of an all out uprising with any tools and weapons they can find en masse. Maybe people are doomed to repeat history, but it seems retarded to me if you can stop it from repeating.

Free elections and speech ensure democratic societies live and continue to function. Ending presidential term limits, consolidating major natural assets under the state, along with the media - the single most important balance check against any government in a free society, that is not "democracy". That is stifling dissent and the exchange of free thought & ideas. People should be holding the media accountable, instead you guys have it backwards where the government is leading the charge in everything, and citizens blindly follow. Chavez spouting off things like "Fatherland, socialism or death." is not a very bright outlook on the future. It seems that there is no room for actual democracy in this "new democracy". So yeah he can run off your nations smart people, and political opponents, and you can assume they are all evil and lame or whatever you like. It doesn't change the inevitable truth that this man's policies are going to tarnish your country for a long time to come, no matter who you believe or what you think. It's probably too late already, since the courts are stacked with his supporters, and they are also there at nearly every level of government.

What is most frightening howerver, is that once he quells all the opposition in his own country, he will most assuredly start turning to his neighbors and other non-supporters with threats of conflicts & subversion of their own government if he doesn't get what HE wants in the region. Hell, based on some of the footage I've seen of him railing against the USA, I'm sure he'd like nothing better than a confrontation with us. I just hope it's not some sick fantasy of his to start a conflict he knows will end with his country getting it's ass kicked and the same people who supported him, becoming the real sufferers as a result

That's what they've been saying for 8 long years, dude.

Thing is he hasn't really done much at any one time in 8 years compared to what is happening now. Now we're at the point where you can see all his little moves falling into place in the big picture; his plans coming together and kicking into high gear. Once he has total control of the media and "bad news" & dissent all but disappear, it really will be over.

8 years is a drop in the bucket. Cuba is still going, and probably will until that cockroach finally dies. The USSR lasted 69 years from 1922 to 1991. It's quite possible for him to succeed in what he is doing, but it is also inevitable, just like other socialist states in the past, that when the government finally does implode and collapse, the true suffering that will have gone on there for however long (which is yet to start) over X number of years, will come out just like it did with the Soviet/Eastern Bloc States.

Every time in History this has happened, people have promised it would be different, and would be eutopia - and every time they were wrong. So you have a few good years, maybe decades? It won't stop the truth from repeating. Chavez's government will only become more and more paranoid and oppressive as time goes on. Tens of millions of people have died under socialist state "policies", much more than any free nation has ever killed (being that we don't kill our political opponents and dissidents, for looking at us the wrong way, etc). Look what socialism did to Europe, World War II, and then later the aforementioned USSR. Why? Because every time, one raving lunatic fuckup had all the power. And guess what? When they all took power - everyone loved them too! Because they promised to restore their country to its former glory. The only thing Germany got restored to was a civilized society after the previous one became a bombed out, dead, shell of a nation.

Did you know the Pilgrims also experimented with socialism ("collectivism")? Funny.. We're all Capitalists now.

I'm hearing all kinds of interesting info now.

What are you hearing/seeing butters?


Is it true the protests are now blocked from TV after showing a pro-Chavez rally? All the stations carried some 3 hour press conference?

If you mean the "chains", yes, 3 hours, but the day after the pro-Chavez rally, there was an anti-Chavez rally at the same hour and same location. All TV stations broadcasted it as well, except two private TV stations that didn't show anything at all (Venevisión and Televen). This chain thing isn't anything new to us.

Dude, no matter what they do, RCTV won't come back through the open signal. The only way they can return is through cable. Many cable companies have offered this TV station to broadcast through cable, but RCTV refused to keep the heat on the streets, with students protesting... all of this with the sole purpose of creating another coup, but this time a "soft coup".

When is this going to end? We don't really know, but the media is saying the protests are going throughout the country, which is not true.

Well I haven't heard it's throughout the country, but I have heard it's more than just the city it started in now..

I think this has moved beyond RCTV at this point. I'm wondering what the International community is going to do (if aything), since they have at least been condeming the whole thing. Personally, if a ton of countries all start talking about freedoms being stripped away, can't deny there is something wrong going on.

So I guess we'll see... Threatening any media that doesn't "support him" with shutdowns, license renewal or not, seems little fishy to me as well. Withdrawing from the OES if they censure him? This dude is pretty picky.. What will happen when Venezuela is cut off from the rest of the modern world because of stunts like this? It will only hurt you guys more

Dude, tell me if this is a big bad joke :biglaugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33oaGGzpbo0