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Jet Set Willy
December 1st, 2003, 05:00
The government stopped the researchers from completing this study, but they did do a lot of work helping out kids who were so ill that they didn't even consider themselves as alive. Some of the quotes are amazing.

"Nancy

"This eleven year old girl was the most difficult and challenging person we treated. When first introduced to me, she was in complete retraints twenty-four hours a day. She was in full camisole and her legs were tied to the bed. This was necessary due to her extreme self destructive behavior. If her hands were free, she would gouge out her eyes, hit herself in the head as hard as possible, bite her fingers, tear out her tongue. She was totally emaciated, covered with swellings and bruises, black eyes in sunken sockets. She was incontinent and refused to eat. She was IV fed, she looked like a beaten up, starved, wild, eighty year old woman. She made no eye contact, did not respond to any physical stimuli, attempted to make guttural noises and spit, but unsuccessfully, as she was so exhausted. The attending physician felt that she would probably die. All known drugs had been tried. It was frightening to treat her with LSD, as my concern was her extremely frail physical condition and that she might die during a session.

<snip>

Prior to her seventh session one of the ward staff, Van, asked her what she was going to see during her next "test," she replied, "God and Van." He laughed and asked her how she could tell the difference. Very seriously she replied, "I&#39;ll show you. You&#39;ll be there and I&#39;ll show you." Van asked, "Where will that be?" She replied incredulously, "Why, in the visitor&#39;s room. That is the only place you can see God."

<snip>

She had become affectionate and warm, loved to be physically touched, and smiled happily a great deal of the time. She had given up her self-destructive behavior and wanted to identify with the treatment staff and to be included in the grown-up world. "


It&#39;s here (http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n3/07318fis.html) if you want to read it. I suggest that you do so(and with an open mind).

Ignorant comments will be met with a level of anger from me which I&#39;ve only previously hinted at.

Jet Set Willy
December 1st, 2003, 05:03
Fuck. Could somebody please edit this title to say "Psychoactive" and not "Pyschoactive" please?

El Fugitivo
December 1st, 2003, 06:20
I only had time to skim over it for now, but I thought it was interesting how at least two of the patients/subjects made references to God after sessions had begun (Timmy and Nancy). It seems like the concept of a supreme plan/being makes people feel like everything is going to be (and is) alright.


Do you know if there are more in-depth notes or papers on the specific sessions? I&#39;d like to know what led them to try different doses of the two drugs on the various patients.

Codeine
December 1st, 2003, 06:28
I enjoyed the one with Floyd, it was really sad, especially this: "No, no, no, I can&#39;t be alive, this is too good."

I skimmed through most of it, stopped to read most of Floyds though. Found it kinda disturbing that 9 year olds were making sexual advances too adults. This was a pretty interesting read over all.

Jet Set Willy
December 1st, 2003, 06:48
Yeah, that part was kinda upsetting.

<><>
December 1st, 2003, 07:54
My question would be: If we use drugs that warp reality and logic in order to make the world in which we live in acceptable to these troubled kids, are we doing any good at all?

Jet Set Willy
December 1st, 2003, 08:18
Yeah. Quality of life has been a common theme tonight as Badger will agree.

I think though that these kids are so messed up that the general state of modern society isn&#39;t a factor. They just can&#39;t function in a reality of any sort, and so taking them to a drug-space is necessary. I can&#39;t speak from an L.S.D. point of view, but I&#39;d imagine that the general &#39;connection feeling&#39; (with others and with nature) would be extremely beneficial to these kids. I&#39;m slightly autistic (asperger&#39;s) and I know that mushrooms help me make peace with the world. Sometimes I&#39;ll stand up and give an understanding "Oh&#33;" or "Ahh, I get it." to myself if I&#39;m confronting issues whilst tripping which make no sense to me sober. I think that would apply with these kids (I call them kids, but they are of course old enough to be my grandparents now [assuming they all made it this far]).

Zach
December 1st, 2003, 11:21
Why waste money, just put them out of their misery.

Thats what I don&#39;t understand. People want to help others for which there is no real hope, so instead of putting them out of their misery (in the name of humanity) they prolong the poor persons suffering with drugs and medication that renders them about as useful as if they weren&#39;t on medication at all.. This is somehow more humane than ending their pain ?

Sounds more like a waste of what is probably public money which could be better spent elsewhere, in an attempt for the normal people to earn "brownie points" with "god".

Jet Set Willy
December 1st, 2003, 17:54
What? This isn&#39;t like doping a kid up on tranquilisers.

ScotchGuy
December 2nd, 2003, 02:06
I&#39;m guessing Neco didn&#39;t read all of it, they&#39;re helping the kids by giving them drugs which alter the way they feel so they feel better. They&#39;re not prolonging anything, they&#39;re simply making life more enjoyable for the kids.

<><>
December 2nd, 2003, 07:28
I don&#39;t really know if the people in charge think that the report means much. Documenting what people say when messed up is as effective as making the illiterate solve an algebra equation. They have NO idea what the kid is seeing. They haven&#39;t got the slightest idea on what is going through their head or what they mean when they speak. It is quite impossible to graps what someone tries to say when messed up let alone some very young kid that has severe psychological trauma and has the inability to communicate.

I agree on the point of feeling a connection to others. Sure drugs can make you feel &#39;connected to others&#39; and some. And I guess that since they are in a state which lead them to be interned in the first pace one can rule out the possibility of halucinogenicsa triggerred schitzophrenia and aggravation on ones mental condition. It shocked me that they said "yes this is real" to Floyd, I believe it was, when he was off his head and asking if it was real. "I want outside" eheh they were quick to interpret that one in the way they wanted as well.

They have no clue weather in his mind he was hearing voices (&#39;is the music real was another question") weather he would see the other people melt in front of him or rapidly change appearance to look like a giant bunny/his dead mother/whomever. So replying yes this is real to his question is absurd. His long periods of regression or some of the other childrens long perionds of isolation while tripping could be a clear sign that they could have been isolating themselves fromthe alternate reality that could have altered the very basic premises of every day life (such as time flowing in one direction, the ability to be able to look at ones own feet and dust see the distance equal to ones own height rather than their legs stretching to infinity, etc.)

While I am the first one to say someone should serve a mushroom spiked salad at UN sessions or banquets of the worlds leaders and then film what would happen next, doing this to kids that have a hard time grasping reality is in my humble opinion questionable. These drugs can alter the perception of someone who has a strong hold on reality to the degree of convincing him that he is a midget and that he needs to hang himself by the neck to get taller, so I have to say I cant even imagine in the slightest bit what these kids might have been seeing when tripping.

During vietnam, they thought that giving the soldiers LSD or even more potent halucinogenics was a darn good idea. Now they think giving Extacy to mentally troubled people will help them out. Drugs are fine im my book... as a passtime or a diversion. But if one starts using the drug for more than what it&#39;s supposed to be, to help them out with reality, that usually is a first sign of trouble with their relationship with the drug.

They have been pumping very strong mind altering drugs into mad people for nearly half a decade now. Some of the stuff they use to &#39;sedate&#39; the patient is a short circuit drive through buckaroo banzai and the seventh dimension. Sure if it helps ease their pain or make reality more acceptable... but to document these trips and try to make sense out of them from a detached doctors point of view is absurd. It is very easy to interptet these words in the way one would want while the kid may be speaking about the giant aubergine that is singing nursery rhimes with the voice of their father.

donkeyknob
December 2nd, 2003, 07:58
sure, they allow those drugs but if i wanna drink my ass silly i get charged for underaged drinking. stupid government fucks

Jet Set Willy
December 2nd, 2003, 08:00
Perhaps you&#39;re right, but the fact that they&#39;ve actually got permanent improvements after the drug sessions stopped seems to rule out that this is any short term trip into Weirdsville for the kids. It really seems to have helped them get over their problems, in some cases.

donkeyknob
December 2nd, 2003, 09:38
perhaps... cause and effect???

Jet Set Willy
December 2nd, 2003, 09:48
What ARE you talking about?

My previous reply was to <><>, btw. And really, you don&#39;t get charged for underage drinking. Nobody is that stupid. And they don&#39;t allow those drugs, this was in the 60s before all of the L.S.D. problems. I don&#39;t even think extracted psilocybin is legal anywhere now. It&#39;s not here, despite our mushroom policies. Recreational and medical use are entirely different. Drastically mentally ill people aren&#39;t that way just because they want to trip legally.

donkeyknob
December 3rd, 2003, 03:42
i had no idea what to say so i said that

Codeine
December 3rd, 2003, 03:47
Wow.

You shouldn&#39;t spam in a thread like this.

<><>
December 3rd, 2003, 10:25
Originally posted by DJ Beefzibit@Dec 3 2003, 03:42 AM
i had no idea what to say so i said that
Silence is golden grasshoppa =P

I guess they did obtain results at least on Patty who was not psychotic to begin with. As for the otherr kids, we really don&#39;t know if they regressed or not since the program was in essence halted. I can take a wild guess that most of these guys were also released during the reganomics asylum cuts which helped boost the crazy new york homeless population in the 80&#39;s.

The &#39;revelations&#39; brought on by psychoactive drugs do eventually wear off. Most of the people to &#39;turn on, tune in and drop out&#39; are now responsible working people (some still homeless hippies :( ) If a lon time goes by afterhaving taken a trip into wonderland, the events and halucinations one witnessed become more dreamy and less &#39;real.&#39; But I&#39;m not psychotic as far as I know and cannot speak for the experience of those kids. It is well documented that schitzophrenia, and other forms of dormant mental conditions can be triggrered by the use of psychoactives, so my first thought would be NOT to give psychoactives to perturbed and unstable children.

But again, each individual has his own capacities, and experiences so this might not mean anything. In the short term, the way it is told in the report it seems that the drugs did help improve the apparent aspect of their condition. I&#39;m not a big fan of using drugs to get over your problems, but in some cases it is unevitable. Maybe some day LSD, mescaline and psylocin will be like the prozac for asylums.

M.H.A.Q.S.
December 3rd, 2003, 12:49
I can never believe that drugs can give you effective and stable times.

<><>
December 3rd, 2003, 18:13
I guess if you normally have the urge to mutilate and defecate on everyone you see, taking some extacy may make you only want to urinate and/or spew semen over them, which might in turn be considered an improvement on the prior condition...