So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n3469450.shtml
Quote:
(AP) Gunmen opened fire on students returning from a march Wednesday in which 80,000 people denounced President Hugo Chavez's attempts to expand his power. At least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, officials said.
Photographers for The Associated Press saw at least four gunmen -- their faces covered by ski masks or T-shirts -- firing handguns at the anti-Chavez crowd. Terrified students ran through the campus as ambulances arrived.
National Guard troops gathered outside the Central University of Venezuela, the nation's largest and a center for opposition to Chavez's government. Venezuelan law bars state security forces from entering the campus, but Luis Acuna, the minister of higher education, said they could be called in if the university requests them.
Antonio Rivero, director of Venezuela's Civil Defense agency, told local Union Radio that at least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, and that no one had been killed. Earlier, Rivero said he had been informed that one person had died in the violence.
The violence broke out after anti-Chavez demonstrators, led by university students, marched peacefully to the Supreme Court to protest constitutional changes that Venezuelans will consider in a December referendum.
The amendments would abolish presidential term limits, give the president control over the Central Bank and let him create new provinces governed by handpicked officials.
The protesters demand the referendum be suspended, saying the amendments would weaken civil liberties in one of South America's oldest democracies and give Chavez unprecedented power to declare states of emergency.
"Don't allow Venezuela to go down a path that nobody wants to cross," student leader Freddy Guevara told Globovision.
Chavez, who was first elected in 1998, denies the reforms threaten freedom. He says they would instead move Venezuela toward what he calls "21st century socialism."
The Supreme Court is unlikely to act on the students' demands, given that pro-Chavez lawmakers appointed all 32 of its justices.
Hundreds of National Guardsmen and police in riot gear were posted along the march route to prevent clashes between protesters and Chavez sympathizers, but they were restricted from entering the campus.
Oh jeeze.. So if you want to march down the street you risk being shot for disagreeing with everyone else? :dry:
The whole deal with the TV stations a few months ago, the repeated appointments of loyalists to every branch of government, including the highest court in the country, Plans to get rod if presidential term limitations?
I've said it before and I'll say it again.. Socialism/Communism/all those far lest "Utopian" forms of government have never, in the history of the world, worked.. And this guys sounds more like he's setting up to be Dictator for life, every time I see .
I'm sure you still disagree with me Jale, but I just can't see how things are imprving at all.
Meanwhile all pro Chavez supporters continue to do is attack those that disagree with the, and blame America.. I mean, if we wanted your oil we'd just take it, LOL. Nevermind the fact they claimed we wanted Iraq's oil too, but the USA hasn't seen one drop from Iraq.
With everything going on in the world today, and more importantly, with all the BS politics going on here because of the far left politicians and misguided democrats, I need an outlet for all this junk and so I can call it for the bullshit that it all is.. Maybe I'll finally put up a new site or something.
Re: So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela
Why am I not surprised? :dry:
Let me clear the panorama:
These anti-Chávez students are nothing more than attention whores who put shows for the cameras of Globovisión, a CNN ally and heavy critic of Chávez.
Quote:
Gunmen opened fire on students returning from a march Wednesday in which 80,000 people denounced President Hugo Chavez's attempts to expand his power. At least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, officials said.
Actually 9 people, 2 by gunfire. They are all fine now.
Quote:
Photographers for The Associated Press saw at least four gunmen -- their faces covered by ski masks or T-shirts -- firing handguns at the anti-Chavez crowd. Terrified students ran through the campus as ambulances arrived.
These gunmen are strange people who don't belong to the Central University of Venezuela, but to the Simón Bolívar University, a private university, and these gunmen are part of a student movement caracterized as violent and terrorist. They are not in any way Chávez's supporters.
While anti-Chávez students were marching, pro-Chávez students stood at the Central University of Venezuela working on the campaign for the Constitutional Reform. When these anti-Chávez students came back from a peaceful march, their frustration (because they couldn't set the violence on streets, just like they did last week) led to this act of violence and kept pro-Chávez students as hostages inside a building.
Quote:
Antonio Rivero, director of Venezuela's Civil Defense agency, told local Union Radio that at least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, and that no one had been killed. Earlier, Rivero said he had been informed that one person had died in the violence.
No one is dead.
Quote:
The amendments would abolish presidential term limits, give the president control over the Central Bank and let him create new provinces governed by handpicked officials.
Bullshit! Presidential term limits will be set to 7 years, the Central Bank must follow the economic sovereignity and these provinces will be picked by votes (art. 136 of the reform proposal).
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The protesters demand the referendum be suspended
They don't want the referendum to be suspended, but to not take place ever, suppressing our rights to vote if we are in favor or against this Constitutional Reform.
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...saying the amendments would weaken civil liberties in one of South America's oldest democracies and give Chavez unprecedented power to declare states of emergency.
The same blah blah blah of the media. They haven't even read the reform proposal and what it's all about.
Quote:
I'm sure you still disagree with me Jale, but I just can't see how things are imprving at all.
I disagree, true, but I'm not suprised either. Whenever there's an election coming, these conservative groups explode in violence and the media goes like crazy. The same happened in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006 and now 2007.
Quote:
"Don't allow Venezuela to go down a path that nobody wants to cross," student leader Freddy Guevara told Globovision.
Freddy Guevara puts all of us (pro-Chávez and anti-Chávez) into his oven. They (anti-Chávez) are the only ones that don't want to cross that path and it's clearly evident on streets [pro-Chávez marching with happiness (Sunday 11/04/07) and anti-Chávez with hate (Thursday 11/01/07 and yesterday 11/07/07)].
Quote:
The Supreme Court is unlikely to act on the students' demands, given that pro-Chavez lawmakers appointed all 32 of its justices.
Then why did they march on the first place?
Let me tell you something. If this group is pretending to get back into power, I say clearly I prefer Chávez, whether he's a dictator or not, than this bunch of crazy goats. The same Otpor! script is being followed in Venezuela, but there's a sure thing: They won't success!
I'm not gonna extend this debate, since it'd be like talking against a wall.
Re: So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela
I WILL be responding to this thread in the future when I have some free time, just making that reservation... Most of those responses are... troubling on several levels, but easily rebuked
Re: So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jale
Let me clear the panorama:
"Paranoia"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jale
Bullshit! Presidential term limits will be set to 7 years
Term limits refers to how many times a person may hold a particular office. Length of term refers to how long each of those terms in office last.
Chavez' proposed changes would affect both. (The article I read.)
They would increase the length of term from six to seven years, and they would remove the 2-term limit on the Presidency. Chavez is currently serving his second and final term as President of Venezuela. (Like Venezuela, the US also has a limit of two terms for the Presidency.)
If Chavez' changes go through, there would be no limit to how many terms as President he may serve, and each of those terms would last seven years.
its me im the one clearing the panorama
Re: So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela
Lemme clear it even more. There are three giant powers in Venezuela: The government, the media and the population. The media had all the power they wanted before Chávez, now Chávez came and the media is bitching about him with uncountable lies to brainwash the population and then overthrow him, but most of us are not fools and that's why there's polarization among us.
The President of Venezuela will have unlimited terms on the presidency, so what? It's gonna be decided in a Constitutional Referendum, it's what the people want. That is democracy.
The US has a limit of two terms. And? It's not like the US is the model of "democracy" to follow. Sorry, but we don't give a fuck about other countries' government systems, it's all about democracy: What the majority wants. If people wants Chávez to have unlimited terms, then let's go to the referendum and decide if the majority approves.
Why so much controversy about the presidency term from 6 to 7 years? Before Chávez, it was 7 years and no-one said anything.
And besides, the unlimited terms proposal is only the tip of the iceberg, there are other 68 reform proposals which I consider good proposals, because I have already read them and not to follow what the idiot box (TV) says.
Lemme tell you something. 3 years ago (a bit before I joined this forum), believe it or not, I was against Chávez until I found out the truth with my own eyes. I was manipulated by the media. Now reading what this reform is all about by reading all 69 articles, the media manipulation is more evident. What I'm trying to say is I don't believe in Globovisión, Reuters, AP, BBC, CNB, CBS, FOX, CNN and all the letters in the alphabeth.
All I ask is to respect our sovereignty. If this reform will give the president to stay in office for unlimited terms that's because we wanted it. I'm sorry if Bush doesn't like it, but he's not the one to say what other countries should be.
Re: So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela
This doesn't have much to do with Bush.. In fact I don't think I've seen him really weigh in on anything.
However, the idea the the ENTIRE - world - media is against one country, is kind of "out there". Another big problem with Chavez is he doesn't know when to lay low. He just walks around PROVOKING other people until they get pissed enough to tell him to shut up, like has happened recently.
As for whether or not the people want something. Did the people come to the government and say abolish the term limit? I very much doubt it. As you can see in America, the idea that because a law or other litigation is proposed by someone representing the people, doesn't necessarrily mean the people asked for it. I very much doubt the whole country is going to get to vote on whether or not they want the term limit abolished either, so it's kind of hard to say the people want it.
I decided to not really come back and argue anymore, because like you said, you've made your decision and nothing is really going to change it. But by that same token I can tell you this. During the initial 2000 election, I went through the same thing. The media was making fun of Bush and calling him an idiot and a goofball and all this stuff - but when I saw some of his policies going into effect, and that he did what he thought was right and didn't care what others said about it, I changed my mind too.
Gore turned out to be a fucking nut case as it is. And we have all these people crying about how the election was stolen but never gave any proof, whining that the government attacked us on 9/11, but can't provide any solid evidence.. It kind of turns you off.
The thing is, despite all that we don't have people shooting each other for protesting and stuff. We don't have our president trying to stay in office forever. He's just there doing his own thing. He believes in what he says, and he does what he says. That's why I like him, he doesn't flip-flop, even if I don't agree with something he does.
History will be the judge of everything, but I doubt it will be very kind to Chavez in the end, as his total grip on power continues to grow. Same thing with Putin over in Russia. Same thing with Musharraf in Pakistan.
All I can say for all of us, is that I hope none of us wakes up one day and say to ourselves, "oh my god, I was wrong - and now it's too late to do anything about it".
9:35am edit:.. sad.. another report on the TV ten minutes ago about a protester being shot =\
And the by the way.. People may not like the US government because of the current administration, but to claim it is not the best model of democracy to follow is laughable.. In USA is so young compared to every other Nation in the world, and has quickly become the single most powerful nation in the world, socially, financially, and of course militarily. Everyone said for years that the USA would fail as a Nation, but it keeps going. People keep immigrating to our shores, and our laws constantly change. In almost no other country in the world can people so openly oppose their administration and its current policies, without fear of being locked up and beaten, or killed.
The fact that our government changes every 4 to 8 years is one of the single reasons why the USA has survived so long. No one party or man can indefinitely force their policies down our throats. Seriously, you say you guys want Chavez to be re-elected for as long as he wants to keep running? Fine.. But what happens when you get sick of him one day, and suddenly find that you can't get rid of him? It's food for thought..
The USA's foreign policy is a legitimate complaint from other nations.. But please don't fool yourself into actually thinking we somehow are NOT the ideal model of a democratic nation. That is simply hated of Bush shining through.. When he's gone the world will most likely, suddenly love us again; and as usual the world will be begging at OUR doorstep via the United Nations, to come in to THEIR countries to keep peace, protect the opressed, and to supply food and monetary aid to their poor afflicted subclasses.
I find it highly ironic that everyone whines about how we meddle in other countries' affairs, when the fact is we are usually invited in by the governing body of any given country. Usually to protect them from hostile neighbors who would wipe them out, or to protect their own citizens from genocides by their own government..
which reminds me ... Since I am here.. Did you earlier in this thread have the BALLS to call Kosovo and the genocide going on there that we stopped, some kind of "script", as in fabricated BS?? It almost sounds like you support Slobodan Milošević. ???? Please correct me if I'm wrong there.
Also remember we are a Democratic REPUBLIC, not a true democracy. Like socialist utopia, a true democracy is a near unobtainable goal. Bottom line here though is, if practically the entire world media is all reporting the same thing is happening inside your country, it's not a chance in hell that there is some "news organization conspiracy" going on. It's very hard to turn a bunch of fiercly independant and competitive news organizations into one giant voice, conspiring to make someone look bad. That just doesn't happen. When the whole of the world media reports something is wrong, it's usually because something is... Not because they decided they hate Hugo Chavez.
Re: So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela
2:59pm Nov 29, 2007 ... I'm seeing wide shots of thousands of people opposed to the abolishment of term limits :confused:
http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/11/ve...chavezs_re.php
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/071129/w112967A.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313908,00.html
I will await with great interest, the results of the term-limit abolishment vote, to see if it comes in super close, or not..
On a side note.. Do you really support the idea of "communal property" ? What if the government decides you have to share your car with 5 other people? Or give up your residence to someone else and you have to move into some place crappier? What exactly IS communal property?
Does he have plans for communal wages too? I bet that would be fun..
Btw.. I know you said you've seen these marches near your area first hand. Just curious if you ever stop to talk to them? And I don't ean spouting "go home pigs" party line crap, I mean actually talk to them?
Re: So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela
Tell FOX, CNN and friends to count again :laugh:
This was in 2006: Presidential Elections.
This is what they covered today:
Tomorrow we will march too.
Re: So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela
What is your source for that? I can arbitrarily draw lines on pictures too.
Again, this isn't just local country news here, International Organizations all report the same numbers.
By the way, just by the extrapolation of vehicle sizes, you could easily put tens of thousands of people in that blue space.
Just remember to stop and find some of the "blue" guys to talk to. You should at least be willing to know who and what you're marching against, no matter whose side you believe in
Re: So much for CIVIL discourse in Venezuela
I read the reform and already looked from both points of view. All I can say is that the "blues" are lying about the reform, because it touches the most obscure interests. That's all. The media is a powerful tool. They said so in 2002.
